Korean Air returns to gate to offload Flight Attendant
Taufupok
Yup agree with you... and RDR also agree you have a valid point.
However what we think are the most basics of being a Commander in the western world are not so simple in the Far East part of the world.
At least this way the story in all its glory has got out and is being noticed.
As Tau said - had the captain used his authority ( and his kahoonas) and taken the flight to Icn - he would be jobless, the Purser would be jobless, the story would not have got out and she would be gloating to her Kimchee clan.
Yup agree with you... and RDR also agree you have a valid point.
However what we think are the most basics of being a Commander in the western world are not so simple in the Far East part of the world.
At least this way the story in all its glory has got out and is being noticed.
As Tau said - had the captain used his authority ( and his kahoonas) and taken the flight to Icn - he would be jobless, the Purser would be jobless, the story would not have got out and she would be gloating to her Kimchee clan.
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Well bean curd, perhaps you should rewrite the flying manuals about how to fly. To keep your job........ instead of commanding an aircraft. I'm sure, there will always be some who fly around with one hand covering their arse, and the other on the yoke.
Yes, sometimes the end does justify the means, as in this case, I agree the eventual outcome did.
However, strong, articulate reasoning, at most times, will come through as opposed to fearful capitulation of ones authority when facing a bully.
Commanding an aircraft requires a huge amount of self belief and confidence. And it doesn't matter with which company.
I wonder how this capt would come through in a thunderstorm one night, at a mountainous airfield, with one engine out, a non-precision approach, and a F/O named Pedro. Perhaps Cho would be there to tell him to return to the gate.
Yes, sometimes the end does justify the means, as in this case, I agree the eventual outcome did.
However, strong, articulate reasoning, at most times, will come through as opposed to fearful capitulation of ones authority when facing a bully.
Commanding an aircraft requires a huge amount of self belief and confidence. And it doesn't matter with which company.
I wonder how this capt would come through in a thunderstorm one night, at a mountainous airfield, with one engine out, a non-precision approach, and a F/O named Pedro. Perhaps Cho would be there to tell him to return to the gate.
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Originally Posted by Kenai
By the way...any news on what happened to the ISM who was offloaded and the FA that served her the nuts in the first place?
A cabin crew chief says he was forced to kneel and ask forgiveness by the daughter of Korean Air's chairman, before being ordered off a flight.
Describing the incident for the first time, the head steward said the company tried to persuade him to change his story.
After being confronted about the nuts, he said he was made to kneel down in front of the executive before Ms Cho yelled for the crew to "call right now and stop the plane."
"I will stop this plane from leaving," she is said to have shouted.
Once home, officials from the airline came to his home to ask him to say that Ms Cho did not use abusive language and that he voluntarily got off the plane, he said.
Describing the incident for the first time, the head steward said the company tried to persuade him to change his story.
After being confronted about the nuts, he said he was made to kneel down in front of the executive before Ms Cho yelled for the crew to "call right now and stop the plane."
"I will stop this plane from leaving," she is said to have shouted.
Once home, officials from the airline came to his home to ask him to say that Ms Cho did not use abusive language and that he voluntarily got off the plane, he said.
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That the captain allowed all of this to happen on his aircraft is despicable. He's got no backbone. If he's so worried about his job and KAL's threats to send pilots "back to home town" that he permits this behavior, then he's a Judas. I've had important people ejected off of my planes for less, and stayed employed.
And the purser? No courage either. You can look at such a job as a gift, or you can see it as an earned responsibility. If you see it as responsibility then you do the right thing and stand on your feet like an adult. When company stooges come to your home to manipulate, kindly tell them to "get the hell out of my building."
And the purser? No courage either. You can look at such a job as a gift, or you can see it as an earned responsibility. If you see it as responsibility then you do the right thing and stand on your feet like an adult. When company stooges come to your home to manipulate, kindly tell them to "get the hell out of my building."
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Cultures that are relevant to the cockpit: the professional cultures of the pilots, the cultures of organisations, and the national cultures surrounding individuals and their organisations. This issue runs much deeper than a bag of macadamia nuts. Lets hope that something positive comes out of this? B
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RDR:
You must be a truly amazing person...I'm sure they let you wear 6 stripes on your shoulder.....As a 'Commander' should do....Or wait...Is that a Star Trek guy....
Walk a mile in someone else's shoes my friend before you criticize.....
Flame on.....
You must be a truly amazing person...I'm sure they let you wear 6 stripes on your shoulder.....As a 'Commander' should do....Or wait...Is that a Star Trek guy....
Walk a mile in someone else's shoes my friend before you criticize.....
Flame on.....
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Empty vessels making a lot of noise it seems.
Either you were there at the time in the **** and had to make a decision or you can sit at your keyboard with all the time in the word and pontificate how a captain ought to behave.
Either you were there at the time in the **** and had to make a decision or you can sit at your keyboard with all the time in the word and pontificate how a captain ought to behave.
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Guys - as per normal pprune style its going all personal everyone has their opinions, please keep it civil - as a commander I would not have let this happened, I certainly would not turn back to the gate for anything else but safety related issues, she is no more than a spoiled prima donna that went way above her authority and the Korean commander endorsed it for whatever reasons - we have yet to hear from him - but one thing is sure she is getting her comeuppance 
she has lost her face and in Asian culture that is a NO NO even her Dad called her foolish in the press 
she has lost her face and in Asian culture that is a NO NO even her Dad called her foolish in the press
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An incident like this is a straightforward one, and there is simply no decision to make. Its like having to pee at 10 mile final. You don't.
You don't need Scotty to beam you around, or sit behind a computer hoping for a eureka moment.
But then, I may be casting pearls before some proverbial swine.
You don't need Scotty to beam you around, or sit behind a computer hoping for a eureka moment.
But then, I may be casting pearls before some proverbial swine.
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The most important thing that has not been addressed is the safety culture within this organisation. How far will this company's employees push common sense and safety in order to appease their bosses and hang on to their jobs? Unfortunately, it appears to be a national trait. This southern part of this country appear to have the same disconnect with reality as their northern cousins. The country's headline events such as the Asiana crash, MV Sewol, building and bridge collapses demonstrate a first world technology being administrated by people from the Middle Ages. It's not the toys that matter, it's how you play them.
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seriously who is going to overrule a Vice President of your company for something that has no safety implications?
I have lost count of the times I have flown senior board members (on two occasions, all of them). When we have advance notice if their presence, my briefing to our colleagues in the cabin is to keep it standard. Nothing more and nothing less and if they have any questions, to speak to me. But not one of them has ever interfered with any aspect of the flight, and that does not surprise me. In fact, they've even assisted by doing PA's for me to explain how things work behind the scenes during delays. They have also helped conjure up services when I've been told there is nothing that can be done. They have asked many questions of us and the most frequent is "Is this normal?" They have also occasionally been disappointed about some aspects. But being professional meant they did this at the correct time and place. And that was after the flight and on the ground. Because in flight, the crew are right even when they are wrong!
PM
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Capt in no win position...Cleared by Govt investigators....
Korean Air Faces Flight Suspensions Over Executive’s Snack Tantrum
By Choe Sang Hun DEC. 16, 2014
South Korea will most likely order some Korean Air flights suspended after one of the company’s executives made a passenger jet return to the gate because she was angry with the way she was served macadamia nuts, government investigators said on Tuesday.
Cho Hyun-ah, 40, hurled “loud and abusive language” at the first-class cabin crew after she was served her nuts in an unopened package, instead of on a plate, the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport said in a statement.
In another finding that was likely to damage Korean Air’s image, the ministry said the airline’s executives had tried to persuade the cabin crew members to “make false statements” to government investigators in order to protect Ms. Cho, who had earlier denied using abusive language or violence.
“We will impose a suspension of flights or a financial penalty against Korean Air for violating aviation laws,” Kwon Yong-bok, a senior ministry official of airline safety, said during the media briefing. The laws ban onboard disturbances, such as using loud or threatening language, that could endanger the safety of a passenger jet.
Cho Hyun-ah resigned as the head of in-flight services for Korean Air on Monday. Credit Yonhap, via Associated Press The ministry briefed the media on Tuesday on its investigation of the 5 Dec incident, in which the irate Ms. Cho ordered Korean Air Flight 86, bound for Incheon, South Korea, and already taxiing at Kennedy International Airport in New York to return to the gate to kick off the chief steward.
South Koreans believed that Ms. Cho could do so not because she was Korean Air’s vice president in charge of in-flight services but because she was a daughter of its powerful chairman, Cho Yang-ho. Ms. Cho and Korean Air have since become objects of withering criticism and ridicule. The reaction was particularly harsh in South Korea, where people saw Ms. Cho as the latest example of arrogance and entitlement prevalent among the families that control big South Korean businesses, such as Korean Air.
Mr. Kwon said the government will later sort out details of the punishment, such as how many flights will be suspended and for how long.
There was no immediate reaction from Korean Air. The company had earlier admitted that the decision to turn the plane around on Dec. 5 was “excessive” because there was no emergency involved.
Ms. Cho and Korean Air officials faced a separate criminal investigation by prosecutors who were looking into whether her behavior violated aviation regulations and whether the company tried to hush up the scandal.
The South Korean media and analysts said Ms. Cho’s nut scandal exposed problems deeply rooted in the corporate culture of so-called chaebol, the country’s family-controlled business conglomerates, whose leaders have a reputation for imperious behavior and treating their employees like feudal subjects.
Park Chang-jin, the senior steward who was kicked off the plane, has told South Korean television stations that he and a junior steward who had served the nuts were forced to kneel before Ms. Cho. He said he was compelled to obey her because she was “a daughter of the owner” of Korean Air.
When Ms. Cho was called in for questioning by the government on Friday, a horde of Korean Air officials accompanied her, although by then, her father, the chairman Mr. Cho, had apologized for her “foolish conduct” and said he would fire her from all corporate posts in his sprawling conglomerate.
Some of those Korean Air officials asked janitors at the government building to clean the women’s restroom again because Ms. Cho would most likely use it, the local media reported this week. A Korean Air spokesman said he could not immediately confirm or deny the reports.
In a South Korean conglomerate, members of the “owner family” are said to wield decisive influence on which top managers are promoted or removed in their corporate empires. They have often returned to top posts themselves even after they were convicted of bribery, tax evasion and other crimes. (Mr. Cho, the Korean Air chairman, was convicted of tax evasion in 2000.) Mr. Park, the steward, has said that Ms. Cho hit him with a plastic folder of in-flight service manuals — a claim she denied. On Tuesday, government officials said they would ask prosecutors to determine who was lying.
They also said they would punish the airline, not the pilot, for turning the plane around on Dec. 5. Given Ms. Cho’s “special” status among pilots and other employees, government investigators determined that the captain of Flight 86 “had no option” but to follow her order, said Lee Gwang-hee, a senior government investigator.
The transportation ministry said it would form a special panel to check “whether the safety procedures of Korean Air are undermined by its organizational culture.”
“If we find a problem there,” it said in a statement, “we will take drastic action.”
Korean Air Faces Flight Suspensions Over Executive’s Snack Tantrum
By Choe Sang Hun DEC. 16, 2014
South Korea will most likely order some Korean Air flights suspended after one of the company’s executives made a passenger jet return to the gate because she was angry with the way she was served macadamia nuts, government investigators said on Tuesday.
Cho Hyun-ah, 40, hurled “loud and abusive language” at the first-class cabin crew after she was served her nuts in an unopened package, instead of on a plate, the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport said in a statement.
In another finding that was likely to damage Korean Air’s image, the ministry said the airline’s executives had tried to persuade the cabin crew members to “make false statements” to government investigators in order to protect Ms. Cho, who had earlier denied using abusive language or violence.
“We will impose a suspension of flights or a financial penalty against Korean Air for violating aviation laws,” Kwon Yong-bok, a senior ministry official of airline safety, said during the media briefing. The laws ban onboard disturbances, such as using loud or threatening language, that could endanger the safety of a passenger jet.
Cho Hyun-ah resigned as the head of in-flight services for Korean Air on Monday. Credit Yonhap, via Associated Press The ministry briefed the media on Tuesday on its investigation of the 5 Dec incident, in which the irate Ms. Cho ordered Korean Air Flight 86, bound for Incheon, South Korea, and already taxiing at Kennedy International Airport in New York to return to the gate to kick off the chief steward.
South Koreans believed that Ms. Cho could do so not because she was Korean Air’s vice president in charge of in-flight services but because she was a daughter of its powerful chairman, Cho Yang-ho. Ms. Cho and Korean Air have since become objects of withering criticism and ridicule. The reaction was particularly harsh in South Korea, where people saw Ms. Cho as the latest example of arrogance and entitlement prevalent among the families that control big South Korean businesses, such as Korean Air.
Mr. Kwon said the government will later sort out details of the punishment, such as how many flights will be suspended and for how long.
There was no immediate reaction from Korean Air. The company had earlier admitted that the decision to turn the plane around on Dec. 5 was “excessive” because there was no emergency involved.
Ms. Cho and Korean Air officials faced a separate criminal investigation by prosecutors who were looking into whether her behavior violated aviation regulations and whether the company tried to hush up the scandal.
The South Korean media and analysts said Ms. Cho’s nut scandal exposed problems deeply rooted in the corporate culture of so-called chaebol, the country’s family-controlled business conglomerates, whose leaders have a reputation for imperious behavior and treating their employees like feudal subjects.
Park Chang-jin, the senior steward who was kicked off the plane, has told South Korean television stations that he and a junior steward who had served the nuts were forced to kneel before Ms. Cho. He said he was compelled to obey her because she was “a daughter of the owner” of Korean Air.
When Ms. Cho was called in for questioning by the government on Friday, a horde of Korean Air officials accompanied her, although by then, her father, the chairman Mr. Cho, had apologized for her “foolish conduct” and said he would fire her from all corporate posts in his sprawling conglomerate.
Some of those Korean Air officials asked janitors at the government building to clean the women’s restroom again because Ms. Cho would most likely use it, the local media reported this week. A Korean Air spokesman said he could not immediately confirm or deny the reports.
In a South Korean conglomerate, members of the “owner family” are said to wield decisive influence on which top managers are promoted or removed in their corporate empires. They have often returned to top posts themselves even after they were convicted of bribery, tax evasion and other crimes. (Mr. Cho, the Korean Air chairman, was convicted of tax evasion in 2000.) Mr. Park, the steward, has said that Ms. Cho hit him with a plastic folder of in-flight service manuals — a claim she denied. On Tuesday, government officials said they would ask prosecutors to determine who was lying.
They also said they would punish the airline, not the pilot, for turning the plane around on Dec. 5. Given Ms. Cho’s “special” status among pilots and other employees, government investigators determined that the captain of Flight 86 “had no option” but to follow her order, said Lee Gwang-hee, a senior government investigator.
The transportation ministry said it would form a special panel to check “whether the safety procedures of Korean Air are undermined by its organizational culture.”
“If we find a problem there,” it said in a statement, “we will take drastic action.”
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The Korean culture, will ultimately come down on Cho with a ton of bricks due to the international exposure.
But what is left to be seen, is the serious fallout from having a plane commandeered, and of all places, in good old Uncle Sam.
I believe that is something the airline will be desperately trying to wiggle out of.
But what is left to be seen, is the serious fallout from having a plane commandeered, and of all places, in good old Uncle Sam.
I believe that is something the airline will be desperately trying to wiggle out of.
Suspending flights as punishment is not the way. That actually punishes hundreds of paying/paid passengers.
Better to fine an amount equivalent to the profit of X number of flights.
Better to fine an amount equivalent to the profit of X number of flights.
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Dear Lord, how many CRM courses will it take to get this outfit to keep their "culture" outside of the aircraft? In the past I have refused to dead head on KAL having seen F/Os sit through total screw ups in the simulator and say/do nothing, listen to the voice tape from KAL007 if you want to really get a feeling for how toxic the flight deck culture is on this airline!
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Having flown in the land of the morning calm, the stormy fury by Ms Cho is not surprising. The imperious family lords over the whole company.
Taufupok is right on the money on this one. During the 14 hour flight had the captain disregarded the VP's wishes, it would have been a very unpleasant flight for all. During that time, she would have had all the opportunities to contact her dad's sycophants back in SEL to conjure up cover ups and invent ways to punish the crew. Had this incident not involve a return to gate at JFK, it would have been just a small incident easily covered up by the Korean mass media.
Sorry it is so early in the morning; so I am repeating some of taufu's words which I think make a lot of sense.
I spent 10 years there and I can certainly predict how this would have played out. All the arm chair captain kirks live a dream world with loud pontifications best left in the pubs and crew lounges!
Taufupok is right on the money on this one. During the 14 hour flight had the captain disregarded the VP's wishes, it would have been a very unpleasant flight for all. During that time, she would have had all the opportunities to contact her dad's sycophants back in SEL to conjure up cover ups and invent ways to punish the crew. Had this incident not involve a return to gate at JFK, it would have been just a small incident easily covered up by the Korean mass media.
Sorry it is so early in the morning; so I am repeating some of taufu's words which I think make a lot of sense.
I spent 10 years there and I can certainly predict how this would have played out. All the arm chair captain kirks live a dream world with loud pontifications best left in the pubs and crew lounges!
Heard today that heather cho is in for more legal trouble.
Korean prosecution is preparing a criminal case against her.
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/24/wo...iref=allsearch
Korean prosecution is preparing a criminal case against her.
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/24/wo...iref=allsearch