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Weather avoidance China

Old 7th Dec 2014, 17:43
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Question Weather avoidance China

Hi all,

I don't operate into China often and haven't had to deal with weather avoidance there yet.

As far as I understand in Chinese airspace you are not allowed to fly outside of the airway system. So if there is a big squall line blocking my way the only option is a 180 degree turn back ? And then to divert or find a way around the weather system ? Is that really how it works in practice ?
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Old 8th Dec 2014, 04:59
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China is the same as the rest of the world with wx avoidance, ask 20 miles right and they give it. On a STAR they generally will not be using a star that takes everyone thru a wall of cb's.
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Old 9th Dec 2014, 02:52
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Airspace is controlled by the military. Ask for what you want, and then be flexible. You may want 20 nm right, but when they are unable to approve that due to airspace, you may end up going 50nm left when they say you can deviate left instead.
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Old 9th Dec 2014, 23:36
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Ask early, as early as possible. Use standard ATC english as that is all they understand. They also understand the word "Require". We "require" 20 right due to weather.

If that doesn't work, have your FO ask in Chinese.

If that doesn't work, tell them you are doing it, and do it.

Very,very, occasionally it is a little difficult. It is always manageable. Normally it is the same as everywhere else.
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Old 10th Dec 2014, 09:04
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More and more pilots get their captaincy from PPRUNE nowadays.
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Old 11th Dec 2014, 03:01
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I have been flying into and out of China for well over 20 years. I do so almost every time I strap into an aircraft. Requesting weather deviation is the same as anywhere else in the world. Whether you want 5 miles or 50 miles deviation, just tell them what you need and you will usually get it.

However, it is not unusual to have deviation refused due to military activity or proximity to sensitive airspace. The controllers will usually offer an alternative deviation on the other side of the airway. If you have no alternative but to deviate against the controller’s refusal then just make a PAN call stating that you are deviating due thunderstorm. You will then hear the supervisor come over the top to approve the deviation and to ask you to advise when clear of weather.

I hope this helps. Enjoy your trip to China. It is not the Wild West anymore. There are plenty of frustrating delays (especially in summer) but things run along relatively well considering the huge yearly increases in traffic levels. Just stay flexible, follow instructions and remember that when you want to blow your stack in frustration that you are the only one who is getting stressed up about your situation. So just sit back and call for another coffee and the newspaper.
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Old 13th Dec 2014, 20:42
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Bear in mind that there is quite a lot of sensitive airspace in China, and their radars are good enough to see small deviations if you elect to "scoot over to the side" around weather on the center of an airway or air route.

Also, deviations left or right may involve altitude changes. You may have to give up an altitude above the weather and descend ridiculously low to deviate around areas "due to restriction."

One more thing. When you go from one ATC region to another, the next controller may not know or care what weather avoidance you're doing so the dodgeball game might have to be started again from scratch. I've often gotten higher altitudes above weather, then been cleared down into it (expedite! 2500 FPM!) simply because the flight plan was filed for the lower altitude.

My point is to use caution because ATC can giveth and taketh away with Chinese characteristics.
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Old 14th Dec 2014, 02:01
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Angel

I've done thousands of weather deviations in the PRC, I've never had to climb or descend in order to facilitate a deviation, nor have I heard of it occurring. I think that would be an extraordinary occurrence. However nothing surprises me anymore, so it is certainly possible!

Deviating while crossing an FIR boundary is generally not a problem. The controller usually coordinates it with the next sector. Of course, once in the new sector if you want to do something different from what you have been doing then you would have to advise them of your new requirements. Same as operating in the West. As I wrote above, on the rare occasions when you have a deviation refused and are unable to negotiate an alternative then declare a PAN and just do what you need to do. There will never be any comeback for doing this.

You will find that you are descended to lower levels not because of "what is filed on your flight plan", as The Loner suggests above. It is due to conflicting traffic or because there are often (usually non- negotiable) arrangements that traffic must cross boundaries or points at particular levels. For example, traffic down the east coast of China bound for Hong Kong or Macau are required to descend to cross IKATA (the Shanghai/Guangzhou FIR boundary) at 9800 metres. They specify a descent rate to minimise the exposure to traffic conflicts on a busy 2 way airway while an aircraft descends through multiple levels.
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Old 17th Dec 2014, 00:45
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You may have to turn back if they won't permit you to deviate. Or you may have a better experience, as Midnight Oil hasn't had too much trouble cruising up and down A470 at high altitudes.

I've been based in China, in and out of tier two and tier one cities and am convinced their ATC system was designed by the same people who's agriculture expertise brought on the Great Famine.

In the end, YMMV... Suggest you carry plenty of fuel and roll with it all.
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