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Old 26th Dec 2012, 11:07   #41 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: FL 370
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first officer take home

Guys

Anybody care to publish take home pay for a FO based on a 80hrs month ?

Or by PM

Thanks
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Old 27th Dec 2012, 02:54   #42 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Woodlands
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Estimate is based upon 75 hours flight time per month, for a pilot with a spouse and one child (2 dependents).

This also includes a local 'residence' tax which would also apply to commuting pilots.

(Annual salary)

Captain: 11,761,222 JPY
First Officer: 7,209,344 JPY

These figures are far below a competitive salary. Based on the number of incoming A/C, I fail to see how lowering the required hours will meet their long term staffing numbers. Surely an increase in wages and terms will have the optimum effect.

Last edited by jimmyg; 27th Dec 2012 at 04:43.
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Old 27th Dec 2012, 09:57   #43 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
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Since the last time I posted the Yen has tanked from 76 to about 85 to the USD. Everybody there just took a 10-12% paycut in 1-2 months. I believe the Yen has been around 95-100 for many years but I haven't checked. I will check right after I send this. Will anybody apply when the Yen is 100 to the dollar?
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Old 27th Dec 2012, 15:37   #44 (permalink)
 
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Not this cowboy
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Old 29th Dec 2012, 13:25   #45 (permalink)
 
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Very informative!

I wish all threads on PPRuNe was as civilized and professional as this one.

I asked DP for the info on this one, as the money looked really good, but that was before I found out that you are liable for taxes.

It also clearly states that they expect training to be 4-5 months. Like you guys said, optimistic.

Thanks for all the good info, DOM!
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Old 29th Dec 2012, 23:47   #46 (permalink)
 
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Another thing is that the policies of the new government of PM Abe is to take the yen back between 95 to 100, if they succeed in doing that (most economist seem to think the policies will work) that will reduce the overall foreign exchange value of this contract dramatically
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Old 5th Jan 2013, 14:49   #47 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Japan.....
Posts: 145
I'm curious.....

I've been reviewing the jetstar japan forums and I'm wondering why nobody has addressed the lack of pay issues. I have a good friend that started class almost 3 months ago and he's almost having to quit as he can't afford it. Jetstar does not pay anything until 3-4 months after you start training. Their excuse is you need a work permit to get paid. So you have to pay for everything and cannot receive any pay.

So, since the beginning, he has paid not only for the air fare to Japan for the interview along with the hotel and transport. He also has had to pay for the ticket to Kuala Lumpur for his simulator, his hotel while in training, and all his meals. Jetstar has not paid him his salary. So far he said he has paid out $6800 out of his pocket. Now, he has been told he will get back pay once he gets his work permit and after they have taken out approximately 40% in total taxes. To be fair, he said the company told him the taxes were 15% but I've been using google and the total taxes seem to be closer to 40%, I'm not sure. On top of this, He has to pay $22,000 for his type rating. He was supposed to get 2 million yen when he signed the contract but was told that wasn't possible until he got a work permit..

He's finished with his sim and ground school and now waiting as they are backed up and not enough instructors or JCAB or something. He also told me a couple other disturbing things. Apparently there is a termination rate for expats of around 50% and if you fail any part of your training, there is no chance of a retest, unless you are Japanese.

So, he said you need a lot of cash on hand as you pay for everything and have no income for several months. I wish some of the guys that didn't make it through training would give their account or PM me. Ive also heard about secret tape recordings of the expat Captains.

I was hoping this would turn out to be a good job as I spent a number of years flying in Japan and looking forward to possibly returning. If anyone has any personal experience to refute this please share it with us or PM me. I can't afford to pay what is needed to join Jetstar on top of no salary for such a long time. Thank you.
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Old 5th Jan 2013, 22:28   #48 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Never pay a dollar for training, hotel, airfare or any other expenses while in training. That's your friend's 1st BIG mistake!

From what I've read here and in other forums, plus looking at the contract from my agency, it sure sounds like Jetstar is going to have a hard time recruiting and keeping expat pilots... Good Luck!
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Old 5th Jan 2013, 23:57   #49 (permalink)
 
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The very first clue to just say NO! is when they want to to pay to come out for an interview.

As long as they have people like your friend willing to sell themselves out will companies like Jetstar Japan continue get pilots.

When will the insanity end!

Last edited by jimmyg; 6th Jan 2013 at 00:21.
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Old 6th Jan 2013, 01:40   #50 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Japan.....
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Choices

I completely agree and he knew they were going to gouge him for the type rating cost but he was told he would get the 2 million yen sign on bonus at the start, which almost covers that and he would be paid the base salary, hotel would be covered, and meals. ( He showed me the emails ). Then, after he is a week into training, JQ Japan says, " Oops! so sorry, we cannot give you the sign on bonus nor any pay until after you have a work permit and that will take 3-4 months. And don't worry, we will pay for your hotel but on check out, they refused and all the guys had to pay. Now I did hear, that after 2 years, they will pay back that $22,000 fee for the training costs but that is an unknown as nobody knows for sure.

I agree, as professionals we shouldn't be expected to pay for anything, including the interview but times are changing and there is a choice. Sit at home and let the bank take your house back or bite the bullet and adapt. Can you tell me who pays for everything and would you be able to assist those pilot who need a job by providing that info? My friend had over 15K hours of Jet PIC time from 744, 767, 737, to 320. It's easy to sit back and tell people not to prostitute ourselves, but what are the alternatives? Lagos? the desert? Do you honestly think all the pilots will band together, go bankrupt, lose everything they have? just to prove a point? You're a dreamer. The contract world is what it is, and I'm glad I'm not a young guy having to start over in this mess. Twenty five years ago, I was given a first class seat to fly over to Asia, met at the Airport by a driver, provided with a translator etc... I spent almost 20 years with them.

Perhaps, some of us could start a thread and list all the jobs available to pilots where they could get a job and not have to pay to get to the interview, not have to pay for their training. So we as professional pilots will be treated as such and don't have to lower ourselves, and like jimmyg says "Sell ourselves".

I know of one company as I interviewed with them in the past year that does treat us professionally at least for the interview, JQ Hong Kong. They paid for my hotel, ticket to Hong Kong and were very professional. It was like a breath of fresh air, it would be great if all companies would do that and I've been looking for more but......

What do you think? Any of you young guys with your ideals willing to step up to the plate? I've provided one name. We could all use your help.
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Old 6th Jan 2013, 02:24   #51 (permalink)
 
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I respect your point of view, but with his experience he could have gone to many other contract jobs where he didn't have to endure that nonsense, even in Japan there are other Jobs available that would have covered everything from day one, non of that "oh by the way" BS that according to you he is going through. Lagos or the dessert are not the only options besides JSJ not criticizing your friend's choices, just saying that the T&C'S you described on your post are NOT the norm in the contract world, as a matter of fact, I haven't heard of a pilot not being paid for months, except for that bottom feeding 777 gig in Africa.
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Old 6th Jan 2013, 02:58   #52 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Japan.....
Posts: 145
JQ

I guess I didn't make myself very clear. He didn't take the job knowing that there would be no pay for several months. Yes, he knew about paying for the type but the sign on bonus, which I don't think many in Japan give that, made it a wash. Can you name one airline in Japan that is hiring and one doesn't have to pay for the ticket to go to the interview? Like I said, I've been shopping around and I don't see very many jobs that "cover everything from day one".

In this case, and I'm sure there are many in the same boat, JQ Japan doesn't say anything about no pay until after you get a work permit. I talked to a friend of mine there and he said a work permit can be gotten within a month if they wanted to.

At the present time, he is investigating other jobs as are several of the expat pilots there, since basically the contract has been voided by JQ, in my opinion only.

It's very easy to say, you shouldn't do this, and we shouldn't accept that, but we are at the mercy of the companies and the contracts they supposedly should stand behind. I had several buddies go to the other big Japanese company only to find out half way through they were not going to pay for the schooling of their children as was originally stated in their contract.

Like I said, it would be great to see a thread in which we could list the companies that we don't have to pay for anything. It's very easy to say, "there are jobs available" but why can't we learn the actual names of these companies? I'm pretty sure D we have worked together at some point and appreciate your contributions and assistance. Can't we take it to another level?

Ok, I just got a PM and Mandela Airlines will pay for everything including your ticket to Jakarta, meet you at the airport, and give you a apartment. The pay is fairly low but, I guess that isn't the main thing a long as we get a free ticket.....

Last edited by Jaz and the Fat Man; 6th Jan 2013 at 03:08.
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Old 6th Jan 2013, 03:42   #53 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: York
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... was the 2Mill Yen written into a contract or just verbal or word of mouth? I'm a strong believer in having things written into a contract... and if everything is adhered to and you've signed up... then unfortunately sometimes you just have to admit you've made a mistake.

Also don't know much about work permits in Japan.. but is it a formality?... given time and employer sponsored. Know of many pilots and non-pilots working there. By compaison think someone said Air Japan was just a commuting contract - so temporary.

Suspect Jetstar have their concerns due to the long training delays that if they pay all the costs upfront then someone may do a runner (even if bonded).

Think the industry is not great for someone starting out now to someone with low'ish' hours (FO). Lot better for Capts. Sandpit is the only place I've seen with pay and conditions in line with what you allude to, Jaz... but depends as you say if you really want to be there. Also as an FO, i've seen many jobs, where they do pay for training, flights over, expenses etc... but what they give with one hand they take away with another, through poor pay e.g thread on Cathay cadet/SO - poor pay and 6 year bond (or something). Who knows, maybe the Cadet schemes at Qantas, SQ are ok. Even in the Philippines, where I work, most of the airlines where you pay for the rating pay a lot higher than the one(s) that don't (on local terms)... so it all evens itself out. You can get the rating paid for by Cebu Pac 320/ATR and Airphil Dash8. For me think you have to look past just the pay and conditions though (although you don't want to be skint) e.g country itself... a nice tourist place with good nightlife and good looking women suits well!

Question for you Jaz, if you don't mind (pm if you prefer)?... how do you see things working out at JQ HK? Guess you've been offered there. Have a few colleagues applying there but they haven't been for interview, think they are speculating! I read the JQ HK thread. Basically, they haven't got the AOC yet... is it anticipated to be quick in coming? I heard around March - so possible start of operations around mid-year. Seen the package posted on the JQ HK thread... good but seen others offering similar (some allowing for cost of living)... so depends if you want to wait several months... I personally like HK but had a bad experience once of a start-up (if I did apply and they did accept me )
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Old 6th Jan 2013, 03:47   #54 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2007
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Just saw latest post, Jaz as i was writing... answers/explains a lot about my 'thoughts' raised... so disregard!

Still be interested to hear your thoughts about JQ HK though.
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Old 6th Jan 2013, 03:55   #55 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Over the Pacific mostly
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Quote:
It's very easy to say, "there are jobs available" but why can't we learn the actual names of these companies?
Air Japan, Skymark, ANA Wings, Peach. How about if you do a little research on your own, this site alone has a LOT of information on T&C'S around the world.
But it also contains a lot of second hand my buddy told me BS.
I don't know what happened to your friend, but I do know several JetStar Japan pilots, as a matter of fact, was having dinner with two of them a few days ago, these guys are not going to take several months without pay or people going back on what was agreed upon in a contract about your several buddies that went to one of the BIG Japanese carriers and then were told no pay for schooling, after they signed those conditions in a contract? Sorry but I'll place that into the second hand BS category here at PPRuNe.
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Old 6th Jan 2013, 05:13   #56 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Japan.....
Posts: 145
PI?

I thought JQ HK was very professional and as I mentioned, they paid for my ticket and hotel. I've spent 25 years doing contract flying in Asia and they are one of the nicest. The only negative is the cost of living which, while I don't have any experience with it, I'm assuming it's high. Also, in regard to Dominican's comments, it's obvious he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about and just spewing out nonsense. None of the airlines he just mentioned pay's for your flight to Japan for the interview. ANA will if you are at an online airport, but unfortunately they don't fly everywhere.

He's wrong about companies not changing contracts as it's rampant but if he had any experience he's know that. Sky Mark changed their contract mid-stream when they said they would pay for your children's schooling but then decided not to. Is that unusual? No, it happens all the time but anyone with experience would know that.

The fact is, in Jetstar Japan, you will not receive your 2 million yen sign on bonus until you get your work permit and this will take 3-4 months. The same is true with your salary. You will not receive anything until, yup, are you getting this domino? until you get a work permit. When you get your work permit you will of course receive all your pay and life will be good. BUT, In talking to one of the guys that is on line, they decided not to pay per diem anymore and as far as providing for the condo as was stipulated, that has now gone away.

It's too bad that people feel the need to slam others when they don't really have a clue. I spent almost 20 years in Japan and while not an expert, I do know enough not to spout off with childish statements like Domi's " about your several buddies that went to one of the BIG Japanese carriers and then were told no pay for schooling, after they signed those conditions in a contract? Sorry but I'll place that into the second hand BS category here at PPRuNe.

Bananaman, if you are at all thinking about doing the interview in HK, send me a PM and I'll forward you all the details. I'd do it online but I'm sure I'll have some know it all, who has never interviewed there, jump in and spout some more nonsense. I will say this, the interview is difficult. The one in Japan is very laid back and easy by comparison. Say Hi to the Boys at Cpac, I miss the place....
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Old 6th Jan 2013, 06:00   #57 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Pattaya
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Working for JQ Japan

As I mentioned a couple months ago, I was hired the end of October with Jetstar Japan and today I received a PM to set the record straight since there seems to be some confusion. I started class the beginning of November in KUL. The Sim training etc is a bit less than 2 months. the line training is a month. The big problem now is we don't have enough instructors etc and that is slowing things down a bit. If this wasn't the case, from the beginning to the end would be around 3 months. Quite a difference to the old days. The GS is mostly on your own with very few actual class days. the sim is run by CAE in the Air Asia training center and some super guys. The JCAB comes and does the check ride.

I have been there going on 3 months and have not received a paycheck yet. I'm hoping to have one in February. This is because as expats, we need to have a work permit. This wasn't explained ahead of time so we needed to pay for everything. All our tickets, hotel, food, etc. There is a bright spot, JQ has agreed to lend us some money to live on if we want to take out a loan.

There have been some mid stream changes to our contract but since that is company business, I don't feel comfortable on a public forum. We aren't happy but what can we do.

The training is great and not like what is normally done in Japan. I know, I've been there.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me and I'll answer the best I can. JQ is a good company they are just young and inexperienced. Be patient.

Cheers
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Old 6th Jan 2013, 06:08   #58 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2007
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Thanks for the offer and comments re. JQ HK, Jaz... may well take you up on it!

Don't work for Cebupac actually... merely a competitor where most of the Capts are ex-Cebupac and the FOs get Cebupac Capt (local) pay but without the petty rules i.e Deadheading somewhere to prevent an Off day etc, and schedules - we had to pay for the Type Rating though. Was able to get Dual nationality although I spent my entire life in another country.

Going back to JQ HK, have concerns on when the AOC will arrive and the time delays to start employment against other alternatives. As I say my colleagues are saying, AOC anticipated to arrive March, so may not start flying until mid-year... they haven't been for interview though. Also heard they've completed recruitment for the initial batch of pilots anyway and are only recruiting instructors at present. Again, if don't mind me asking, were you given a definite start date or will they get back to you once they have the AOC? On another note from chat on the Line... 3 pilots, 2 Capt and 1 FO have just resigned to go to Vietjet for an immediate start -commuting contract, I believe.

To all... appreciate, this is a Jetstar Japan forum, hope the issues get sorted soon. Enjoy your time in Japan... it's a great place, hopefully i'll be back soon

Last edited by bananaman2; 6th Jan 2013 at 06:14.
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Old 6th Jan 2013, 06:44   #59 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Japan.....
Posts: 145
JQ

I don't have a start date. Initially I was told the first flight would be in March but then at the interview, they changed to June. They need several things before they will start flying anyway. Like permission.

JQ Japan has huge expansion plans so that might not be a bad idea. Disregard what you see in the requirements. I know one guy with no JCAB cert and no 320 experience and he is in class now.

I would really like to get back to Manila, I'm still current with my certificates and visas. Could you PM me? I'm running over this week for a few days of cultural exchange in AC. ,-) Thanks!

And Thanks Stewsan for setting the record straight about the JQ pay and contract issues.
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Old 6th Jan 2013, 08:05   #60 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: York
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Jaz.... pm sent.
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