Now Lion Air wants to make money out of jobless pilots from India

[flyforwings]

Went to MSD OFFICE

Hi everyone...

i called on that number (given on the website) and went to meet the guy over there..its right, the guy over there is Siddharth Kasana.He claims to have hours on 737 aircraft.

After reading all the posts and the conversation with him,i think that this prog. is not fake.I read the contract which we would be signing.It would be on stamp paper of 100rs.

Its true that we are spending 25 L and getting only 2000USD a month.I really appreciate what dragon fly has told us about lion air.I think he is working for the same company or have worked..The stories he is telling is what no one out side of lion air can know and these stories were not found anywhere on the internet..

What my concern is that if we spend 25L do we get what we are told for.I don't care what Kush Bhaisn or Mr. Kasana is getting out of the whole deal..
Today i know so many of us will be ready to pay 30-35 lacs for jet airways as we are sure we will get what we are paying for.

MSD guy also gave me an option of getting type rating on my own..He said but you need to do base and fam flight on your own..in that case he claimed he will send me without charging me anything..

I have been applying to CAE and Eagle jet from a long time..CAE : i never got any reply...Eagle jet ask too much money and gives no salary/appt too..

I searched website of lion air in and out and never found any thing about CAE/Eaglejet/Msd on their website.I dont know if they really post pilot hiring agencies on thier TICKET SELLING website...

I will be going to their mahipalpur office by Tuesday again..I need to study the contract with someone who has legal knowldge..

Lets try to get some useful info about msd aviation rather than info about kb or ks...

Any idea when is jet result coming out?????????

did anyone apply for spicjet??any response back on exam dates???

[vdaff]

But dude I rather Pay Jet Airways 30 lacs and get a high salary and stay in india than paying 25 lac to this guy and getting only 2000 dollars per month and also 3 years bond with 6 months notice and a fine of 100 000 dollars if you want to get out

I dont know what you saying is real or not but this one sh....t contract and its clearly sucking out money and life of the poor jobless pilots like me....

[b.777-200]

[QUOTEAfter reading all the posts and the conversation with him,i think that this prog. is not fake.I read the contract which we would be signing.It would be on stamp paper of 100rs][/QUOTE]

by reading and thinking you cant decide that whether this program is fake or not, u have to check the background of the company. I never heard abt this msd aviation. The direcors of the company must have some solid background. Even i m very much desperate to get a job anyhow but i dnt want to get cheated. we should enquire about the company.

Lets try to get some useful info about msd aviation rather than info about kb or ks

what i can judge is KB and KS they both are partner in this company so we need to get information abt these guys because KB is just FO in Lion Air nothing else and that to on P2F scheme as dragonfly stated. This gut KB is consistently adverstising abt MSD may he is getting something out of it. I think this scheme is fake.

[capt.xyz]

Getting a stamp paper of RS.100 and its endorsement costs Rs.120/- only...its the easiest thing to do , go to a stamp vendor , he will issue you a stamp without even seeing ur I-CARD , you cant decide its genuine or fake on stamp paper thing , this MSD is very new company and Mr. Kasana has swapped lot of companies in his carrier as on his facebook account , y?


Jet Airways
Co-Pilot · July 2010 to present

Arik Air
Co-Pilot · March 2008 to July 2010

Indigo
Co-Pilot · January 2008 to March 2008

SpiceJet
Co-Pilot · July 2006 to January 2008

Y???? and the big thing is no one in jet airways know him as a pilot....there are many jet pilots whom I inquired..none knows him.

My suggestion.... Be aware!!!
its your hard earned money , if it was CAE or Eaglejet , we know that these are renowned companies and they have lot of ppl placed in different airlines in different parts of world...MSD ..new chaps...found a gud way to earn money..!! Y wud a company will give his HR contract to a newbee co-pilot who merely has 1000 TT....LOL

[b.737.ng]

Meet MSD

On Friday I went to MSD Aviation office in Mahipalpur...Their office is on second floor on NH-08 where there are many hotels..

I asked them to give me details on what basis they are charging us 25L for this course..

The guy Kasana told me that this prog will give TR 737NG...Rating endorsement on our license..base training..and Indonesian License..

He said to get base training i.e touch and go a 737 Aircraft ,they need to arrange a 737NG aircraft for a max of 2 trainee pilots with an instructor at one time...He said for this flight the insurance of Aircraft and pilots is very high as its a trainee flight..he also added that this fam flight and touch and go flight would be of 1 hour duration..

He explained the process of getting Indonesian license..We would have to fly some 15 hours with instructors in Indonesia on a SE aircraft for which MSD is paying..This was written in contract that MSD is paying for all this..He said that lion air used to give validation to expat pilots which is valid for max of 2 years...But as this contract is for 3 years so we need to have Indonesian license...

In the contract its written that if after singing the contract and we are not given a job...MSD is liable to pay us salaries for next 36 months...which gives a relief that something is good..

Kasana said that Kush has already resigned from lion air and is already serving his notice period..He joined some airlines in India...

As b.777.200 said..its very important to know about the background of the directors...What we would be spending is something very big...we just cant give 25L to anyone like this...

I emailed CAE...I got a response from a someone named Gomez.She said right now they are only hiring EU nationals for Lion Air prog.For Indian they only have IndiGo prog..

I would suggest to meet these guys of MSD and see the contract..I think most of us over here havnt seen the contract and we are just saying on what we know about the two guys..

I agree with flyforwings that what we need to care is we get what they are claiming to give us.

I just hope all this is not fake...If this prog is genuine and not fake I think its not a bad deal for guys who have money and need to get hours..I think this prog is mix of CAE and eagle jet prog..

If there is anyone else have been to their office and can shed more light on the contract please post..

[DragonFly-ing]

What 777-200 said :

I called up on the numbers given on website the guy over there is siddharth kasana he is the owner of the company he told me that everything is fair as we are the only agents in india to provide pilots to lion air !! he told me he had posted the link of the contract on the website. and abt kb what i heard is he is abt to join flag carrier GA

This is what SK said about his colleague KB or did somebody else? because b.737.ng who went to the office heard he is going to an Indian carrier from the same guy? I hope he did not lie to Lion himself of where he is going, because lion would sure like to get 10.000USD + some fine for bailing out before/early. He joined himself around January/February 2010..on a 2 year contract. But no 100.000USD bond of course he is giving that to you guys as a good deal instead. . Well everybody here is happy to hear he is out anyway, hope we don't suddenly hear him on the radio from rwy 25R, that would be some missed cash for Lion again.

To confirm about 737ng above. We are talking about it on BBM etc. it is true about the Indonesian license and 15 hours SE to get the license. And the maximum validity is indeed 2 years if not on Indonesian license. So this all is correct I presume, i never denied this, only the people involved gives the guys here some suspicion. And everybody is having a laugh how the terms and conditions are so different to us eagle guys/cae. Yes indeed there was no paycheck, but lion is paying in my knowledge everybody on the end of the month... and it's more then 2000USD, and no 100.000 USD bond of course. We are not nuts. Did he explain why there is a 3 year/100.000USD/6month bond. It is not like Lion gives you a free Typerating for it....

[b.777-200]

I just hope all this is not fake...If this prog is genuine and not fake I think its not a bad deal for guys who have money and need to get hours..I think this prog is mix of CAE and eagle jet prog..

How will you decide that this program is fake or not??? even if i have money i will not give it to anybody without having their track record just because i am so deperate to sit in the cockpit. U have to pay all the money to this MSD Aviation as written.

WHAT WILL YOU IF THEY DONT PLACE YOU IN LION AIR??? WHAT THEY NEED TO DO IS JUST SHUT DOWN THEIR RENTED OFFICE THAT THEY HAVE OPENED 2-3 WEEKS AGO!!

@b.737.ng keep the good work going for advertising abt MSD aviation !!!

[kalienator]

Honestly i truly hope the million dollar babies quickly sign up and leave !

Its because of them that every one wants to take our money....helloooo what about the compensation we discussed ....when do we start that .....

indigo
deccan
paramount
now
msd

They are not getting any passengers , so what the hell lets make some money out of pilots.....indians only.....wow...i think the whole world is aware....

We cant keep spending money like this ....back to back ...first flying , then ground school then medical , then exams ..now even the airlines ....

even the airlines......airlines and media have made a mockery out of pilots in india .

I am dumbfounded and miserable in profound grief after reading such articles ...such airlines or institutions should be rather criticized and banned by some regulatory authority to even operate in indian skies....they operators should be arrested on charges of indirect extortion and jailed for atleast 10 yrs .

this is as bad as doctor trading organs rather than treat patients.....

There is boom hire pilots on merit ! infact pilots with more than 500+ hrs at single engine cpl level should be given min preference who tried to buy there way through ....

else we are going to listen to stories like apples and nose wheel landings for the rest of the booming blooming days in this sector.

i truly hope that this msd thing works out for people who are here for fulling their "passion and child hood dream"

cheers!!!!

[Fly Zone TRA]

from what i learnt this MSD aviation charges atleast 1000/- bucks for d forms as well. So even if thedy get 100 desperados a month they make 1lakh. Which is not a tough target considering d number of ppl lookng for a job at d time. However does anyone realise that so much of training will again take enough time for u too b drained out of your wealth even b4 u get a job! & as its already visible, airlines in india have already started hiring. So I'd rather prefer that instead of putting a heavier loan burden on my parents.
Even at 15lakhs for jet, out of which u get 7.5 lakhs back and 25lakhs for this lion thingy Jet is still saving us 10lakhs so i'd rather work hard for that.
I checked d lion air site. All of theeir recruitment forms are in indonesian & i never found any mention of even a single hiring programme in India let alone about MSD aviatioon at all.
D forms available on d MSD aviation site are simple ones that any one can build on their ms-word.
plus the conditions our too close to slavery. Even if we overlook that , one thing that irks me badly is that WHY would any airline in d world make a deal and hire recommendations from those pilots who themselves are leaving the company in no time? (considering SKs already left & KBs bout to leave). So even though i'm excited about the opportunitty..I'm still skeptical and would like t be on d safe side unlike earlier when the same people got scammed off 25lakhs atleast each by ASA

oh btw, does any1 know anything about that Royale blue place which opened up in delhi? I was thinking about taking some Gd classes but dont know much about them so thought i'd gather some info before i meet one of their intructors cz apparently frm what I've heard their teaching centers different from their office. And u need to take an appointment if u want to meet an instructor for detailed counselling. If any1 has any idea regarding their address or phn number, kindly pm me. Thanks in advance.

[b.777-200]

I hope nobody get cheated through MSD aviation!! As dragon-fly said there are already some wild stories abt Mr kb in indonesia and abt Mr sk there is no track record of his good will. he worked for arik air in nigeria after he left indigo in just two months sounds suspicious.

[capt.xyz]

I agree totally with b.777-200 , i contacted few fellows of Mr.Kb , who r my mutual friends, even his friends r saying he is a big fraud.....so brotherly advice , don't fell in to these guys traps , rather work and study hard , there r lots of jobs coming in India rather than getting screwed up in Indonesia like Mr.Kb got screwed there .

[sonsal]

any news with this MSD aviation????it is fake or really got the power to send indian pilots to lion air, but whatever condition is, 25 lacs is huge money and its not worth it.

[DragonFly-ing]

any updates on the ''good deal'' package from our Indian colleague Kush Bhasin and PT Lion Air Indonesia .. Looking forward in seeing the guys arrive in the mix of 140 hours a month flying captains in here. *if Indonesian dgca is reading, they don't care, as long as the 'cigarette-money' income stays secure under the table.* it's quite silent the last week... I think he is hiding under a rock before he jumps to Garuda and let his project MSD aviation ''recruiting friends'' to leave the new guys with a slave contract under the hood of the crooks in management on ''lantai 6(66)'' the devils lair ..... ....

[azax]

from an expat at Lion

So now to Lion Air.

Currently the airline operates around 47 737’s, with 2 or 3 900ER’s being delivered every month in their “controlled expansion plan”. Just as a pointer as to what is to come, the USA FAA and Boeing are more than happy to let the Lion pilots come into the USA to pick up the new aircraft to take them to Indonesia, but Lion Air are never allowed to fly into the USA because the safety and attitude concerns of the Lion Crews, are rightly, blacklisted, and from Europe and America. Indeed, the only way the Lion delivery pilots are evern allowed to fly out of America, is that Boeing “employs” them as pilots working for them in a loop hole in the regulations.

So far this year, Lion Air have had more than 5 runway evacuations. The aircraft do not carry charts/ maps. There are “photo copies” of “photo copies” provided, however, often these are unreadable- would someone from Jeppesen please take note! Even when they are eligible, they are out of date. There are even a couple of instances of Lion Aircraft landing at the wrong airport, or turning up at the airport and landing on the wrong runway.

There is a complete disregard for flight time limitation; one instance of a pilot going more than 160 hours over. Another instance of an ex-pat pilot P2F pilot, when refusing to exceed his 110 hour per calendar month limit, being called more than 5 times by one of the deputy chief pilots (Sooleiman Makartot/ Rio Franky), and eventually being given the ultimatum of flying or being kicked off the “course”.

The regulations governing Indonesian aviation are CASA. I have toilet paper that means more to me than it does to the Lion management. By the way, if you do venture to Indonesia, you will need to carry loo roll with you a lot (along with Jep Charts)….that is if you can find a loo vs. a fly infested hole in the ground, surrounded by an inch of water that has trickled down someone’s backside. Great.

Scheduling is via SMS Text message and an online system called Geneva via their web based crew portal .The online rosta is about 10 percent accurate, it is always revised via SMS as the scheduling is done that night for the following day, so you are on constant standby and can never plan to do anything. I have received texts at 2am and 3am for a flight at 6am to Singapore. I refused, and then, I still would get a bang on the door from the irate driver telling you to hurry up. This happens once or twice a month to most of the expatriate crews that I have spoken too.

Currently there are about 80 expatriate pilots at Lion through CAE and Eagle; Lion plans to have more than 100+ by the end of 2010, as well as opening up their ageing 747-400 aircraft to the Eagle and CAE schemes, flying to their one and only destination, Jeddah. Accommodation is provided for CAE in Harmony Apartments, the Eagle pilots are told about the Harris hotel, and then are expected to find their own feet from there. Being told about the hotel is your indoctrination and introduction to the company and possible the only thing you will hear that makes sense from Ms. Meylda, the secretary to the Head of Flight Operations, “Captain” Filemon- whatever that title means!

Let me, at this point, point out that it is not just the First Officers who are paying to fly, there are indeed Captains on these “courses”. I am still trying to figure out what kind of airline in the world has their Captains and First Officer paying to fly for them! Madness.

You would try to leave knowing this wouldn’t you, if you had been stupid enough to come in the first place! Ha. Lion Air’s MD Rushdi Kirani (excuse the incorrect spelling sir), originally invented the ticketing system and software in use through the whole of Indonesia. He then opened up his own airline, and surprisingly, all the flights at Lion are full…sheer coincidence. Anyway, back to my point about trying to leave. The immigration office has “ties”/ bribe money to stop you leaving at the airport. On entry into Indonesia, you are initially given a tourist visa, and then, on completion of your “ground school” which was sitting in a classroom while the examiner told us the answers, you are then issued with a KITAS and work visa. This is in your passport, along with a “single entry” visa. So, if you want to leave the country now, you can’t, unless you have written permission a month in advance. Now imagine the scenario that a loved one dies, and you need to leave the country. I would almost say imagine leaving the country for a holiday, however, in your contract, holidays are banned, much like freedom of speech is with the gag clause. You are only allowed to leave to renew your licence/ medical.

It is my understanding that Indonesian law forbids working for free and that there is, like in most countries a minimum wage that needs paid. Not so the case with the P2F’s. Rumours, this being PPRuNe, are that the Head of Training is pocketing this small amount of compulsory salary money from over 80 of us now, in collaboration with a certain secretary, to an offshore account in New Zealand…

Back to the flying. All the communication from ground personnel and the majority of the flight attendants is in Bahasa which keeps you in the “loop”- the few that do speak a little English, it is well below standard. The Line training Captains English is good, however when you are released after training, the majority of line captains speak very simple English, indeed, there are a few Captains that do not speak one word of English which makes for an interesting game of Charades while flying a 70 tonne jet at 41,000ft with no map.

NOTAMS and Weather. I am not going to even bother telling you about the token documents you receive, SOMETIMES. Crew briefings. Say what? Best, get yourself a smart phone and check out the weather and Notams on that if you still plan on coming. Many of the places we fly to don’t have internet access, fire cover at the airport, or civilisation. Indeed, flying into Papua I think it was, there was a scantily clad man with a bow and arrow firing it at another scantily clad man with a bow and arrow…on the taxi way.

Lion, trying to maximise profits, as if having the staff paying to work for them was not enough, now aim for a quick turnaround or “fast track”, however, this just results in sometimes violent arguments erupting either between the flight crew, flight attendants, baggage handlers or dispatchers. Someone is getting it and its not pretty. No training was received about this new policy, merely an email (in Bahasa) telling you to, in so many words, haul ass. Since this “new” policy, there have been many incidents; indeed, one of my colleagues had an emergency diversion due to a fire in the cargo hold, whilst another had an explosion on landing.

You would think that, the authorities in Indonesia would do something- but the corruption is so bad that a blind eye is turned to nearly everything that is not white washed or bribed away.

Indeed, I really could go on….for hours about many other aspects of this unsafe and dangerous operation. I just wished to share my experience and hope that others will take heed. I am certain this will not stop the P2F madness from continuing, or will it stop the well heeled ME CPL IR’s from gaining experience in this way.

[azax]

premair flight training

does anyone know about this TRTO?

this is where MSD is planning to send the pilots for training.

[stiffy_pro]

TRTO

MSD is sending pilots to the PremAir, Seattle

[cynicalczar2001]

i just got offered to go into lion air thru msd....i dunno if its legit tho...apparently im gona b put in batch 3...wonder how batch 1 and 2 went....or is there even a batch 1 and 2???
would really like to hear from a person who's already gone thru msd him/herslf....

[flyinghigh89]

just for the info..did they tell u when is the third batch leaving??

[fly.low]

i read their bond, and some points just dont make any sense.
For Eg: The Crew Member agrees that at no stage either during or subsequent to the termination of this Agreement, will the Crew Member claim that he was an employee of LION AIR or MSD AVIATION and bring any personal grievance or other claim on the basis that he is or was an employee of MSD AVIATION or LION AIR.

[flyboy111]

Msd fraud

@ azax


Thanx alot buddy for the information i can totally believe you cause LION AIR is know for their poor saftey standards that is why they had that crash which came on AIR CRASH investigations

also i definately think MSD aviation is a FRAUD cause if you look at it they ask

you to give them a RS1000 Demand draft am guessing if all the unemployed

Indian pilots apply aprox 6000pilots ....... they make a cool RS6000000 i.e

$135000 hahahaha and if converted into indonesian rupiah hahaha i guess u just won the indonesian lottery @1,156,680,000IDR

So id say indian pilots go for it ull make it a little better for the rest of us who want to work in India