Hainan Airlines (HNA/HU) Recruitment UPDATE

[AIEXPATS]

Update 2. We are a group of 20 foreign pilots (Americans and Europeans) working for Hainan Airlines (HNA/HU). The fleets are 767, 330 and 737. We have been recruited/signed up through GPS or Brookfield. Seems that Brookfield is the most disorganized from the two comparing reports. Their may be another Agency, but I do not know the name and have not met anyone here from other that the two mentioned above. On the 330 and 737 fleet their is still demand for foreign pilots, so recruitment is ongoing with about 10 pilots per month coming through. No recruitment of foreigners on the 340, so do not expect this fleet unless the CAAC approves flying the 330 and 340! This is the update on the process and T&C you can expect. You apply electronically to one ofthe above Agencies. The Agency will forward your documents (HNA Data Form, Lic. Medical, etc) to HNA. If HNA is interested, they will request to the Chinese CAAC to have your license verified. Meaning they contact your issuing authority. Once this is done (can takes months) and you fulfill the requirements, you will be invited to an interview/sim (maybe 2-3 months from the 1st contact). The Agency will send you an invitation which you will need to present to the CH Embassy for your VISA. As one cannot send via mail Passports to the Embassy, you will have to go personally. Try and get a double entry VISA for Euro 30 (not sure in the USA). If in a rush, it is another Euro 30 surcharge for same-day service and you will NOT be reimbursed for any of these expenses nor hotel, train, parking, etc. You will need to bring with you a very recent Criminal Record, Letter from Employer (these must be in English, Notarized and specifically worded), Passport copies, License copies, valid 1st Class Medical, 12 Passport Foto's (blue background- very important), etc. Your Agency should give you all the details if you are lucky. The Agency will advise you that HNA will provide transport from their closest Port of Operation. Note- that all Agencies are taking full advantage of the current "hiring boom" in China and trying to jam as many applicants into the pipeline as possible. If you ever saw the Tom Cruise movie JERRY MAQUIRE, do not expect anything like that- no hugs or even an E-mail showing any emotion. E mails will go unanswered for days, specific questions will be ignored or "we are awaiting a reply from HNA". In my case Amsterdam (AMS) was my HNA departure point (SEA and TXL are also avail.), however when you show up at the HNA Airport Counter you will be asked to pay in cash for the security, airport taxes and an enormous fuel surcharge (SURPRISE! I was expecting maybe E150). My ticket cost was close to Euro's 400 excluding the cost of getting to AMS. Please note that even when we were all promised that a refund would be made in Beijing during the interview, some have been waiting since June and nobody has seen one cent! One guy has close to USD 2000 in ticket costs. So this is the beginning of the typical market deception that exists these days due to the market downturn everywhere else on the planet! You will met at the PEK Arrivals Exit by "Adam", a CH National, nice and friendly, but the only person at HNA with whom you will speak English with or have E-mail contact (aside from your Agency- not once you start with an Agency you cannot switch later). This has it's drawbacks, as he is the one person and tries to handle all your paperwork after you arrive and requirements (excluding the Agency) and seems to be completely over loaded with this and seems to be on the road for weeks at a time before he even submits your documents. You will see how disorganized he is due to his workload, by not answering questions specifically, mixing papers and documents, and then coming up with many last minute changes, questions and requirements to the schedule or documents. Adam will take you via a crew bus from Terminal 1 (you will arv. at T2 if you take a HU international flight and a 200 m walk) to your 1 star HOTAC. A very loud, spartan 3 storey hostel like hotel for local airline crews right beside the IM of RWY36L. Forget sleep or even a nice soft pillow or mattress. No sauna, gym, bar, room service - nothing and also located in an industrial area offering zero services or food outlets. They do luckily offer some basic foods (no alcohol) there in an inhouse Canteen at certain times for your 3 meals at $2 a pop and you are from then on, on your way to loosing weight and rebuilding your liver. I also had to think back to episodes of Prision Break where the Incarcirated line up with these stainless steel formed trays waiting for spoonfulls of what looks the same in each divider to be dished out. With hand signs and facial expressions one does get at least a selection from the right pot or bowl. For my group the medical was the next day. No food for 8 hrs. prior! The hospital seems to be of a basic class standard, 15 min. drive via a taxi. Blood test, then EKG, hearing (with loads of street background noise so it is difficult to hear the high tones), eyes, ultra sound, general check-up. Then over to another hospital for your EEG. That same same day we flew to Shanghai on HU in Eco and sadly checked into a small 1.5 star hotel right next to the Airport Marriott. Plenty of dirt and fungus growing in all corners of those rooms, so bring slippers and do not look too closely, however on the positive side just not as loud as the place in PEK. So you can sleep a bit here. However food, etc. is available all within walking distance so not that bad. Here is the location for the famous CAAC ATP test. In my group 4 from 5 failed (70% is a pass). Study material - seems to be many sources? People do well with the FAA ATP test books. In the group that followed us, all 6 passed on the 1st try. If you fail, you have to wait 28 days, if you get invited back you can re-write. All the time Adam is around. If you pass this, then comes the famous English test. So if you do not have ICAO IV or better English shown on your lic., then you are writing this test - even if you graduated from YALE and majoured in English. No stress and takes 2 hrs to do a verbal and computer test! There you will also run into all of the other CH pilots who for that matter need the IV endorsement to do their UG's. So far the medical is done, the ATP and English Test. Next - sim. The 737 sim is in Sanya on sunny Hainan Island. The 330 and 767 sims are in PEK. Many different stories are told on this. Seems the 767 sim is a very old and creaky model. So far everyone has passed it, so nothing scary to report there. Just the fact that almost nobody speaks English and mis-communication does happen between you the FO, the 2 Examiners and maybe if you are lucky the Interpreter. You will briefed just prior to the sim, receive nothing in advance, no profile, nothing (use your SOP's and limitations)! It seems the biggest hic-ups come from the medical, and required documents to continue further down the hiring road. The problem is that HNA and/or the CAAC need to see exactly what they want to see- word for word. Any variation from that requires YOU to make all efforts and expense to change it. so all documents have to end up being translated into CH. After all of this, you are sent home with HU in Economy (I forgot to mention that, all your flights are ECO) to their destinations. It may take 1-4 weeks to be called back. Most likely you will be ask to copy this, Notarize that and mail over to CH. Then when you get invited again. If this is the case, again you will have to pay for your flights taxes, fuel surcharge and via PEK you will arrive in Haikou. Again I have not seen any of these expenses reimbursed and none of the others here. You will have to take a 45 min bus ride on your own (so nobody with a little sign saying "John Doe" at the airport) from the airport to the hotel in downtown Haikou. Walk across the street and check-in. This is a 4 star place and has all one needs, a bit loud and basic. Make sure your room is opposite to the main street or to the sides to avoid the traffic noises! From the there fun begins. Many pilots who got this far do not even have a signed contract yet. The following day you will be given a call and advised what to expect. Slowly over the following weeks you will get a uniform, ID, documents, CD's, Police Check, Residence Medical, etc. I must warn you that T&C's change constantly or are as expected read by the CH in a different way. With the market falling apart and plenty of applicants from Europe, the good old US of A and all those looking for forced relocation from India, HU has seen that they can cut T&C's to suit. The Agencies of course just accept what they are presented by their Client. For example: 5 Business class tickets per year were downgraded to Economy. Not a big deal, but a 10 hr flight can be so exhausting in the Back. Also these tickets cost well over Euro 300 to get to the USA or Europe from PEK return, but are confirmed. Remember you still pay taxes, security and the fuel surcharge on each sector. Note the CH Government charges the equiv. of USD 130 per BBL for fuel to their airlines, regardless of the word rate being below 40! No interline travel agreements that we can see. No medical coverage, but I believe 10 sick days over one year. No Jumpseat Travel either! On paper you are offered 7 consecutive days off or 2 blocks of 5 per month if based in AMS, TXL or SEA, this excludes your travel time! Also HU, if you use their tickets does not fly daily to international destinations near you, so you could easily get stuck in PEK a few days pending when your last flight is arriving back in PEK. You cannot bid, request or change anything as nobody really speaks English except for Adam or seems to be worried about your problems. One is offered 28 days of Annual Leave, but the contract says they (HU) does not have to give you and can pay out (if you are lucky). The other surprise that came later was that during training a reduced salary was offered by 30% for the first 31 days. No mention until the final contract draft was presented. If based in PEK, you'll be finding a place. RMB 5000 is paid out per month so it says in the contract. I figure one will have to top off this to find a nice place by at least $2-500. The higher limit if you move over with your family. No schooling allowances by the way and NO Per Diems. Also no medical coverage here! A transport allowance of RMD 2000 was being offered in the contract. So many disappointments and possible money traps (i.e. upon entering a rental agreement they want 4 months rent in advance) costing alot of painful and a not expected loss of your salary! HU does say they will pay your income tax and offer you the letter. Again I have not seen it, nor have any idea whether the Tax Dept. in your country will even accept this. So make sure you do not accept or even leave to the interview until you have all the facts that you feel you need to know! Good luck and see you HU. Note: that almost all airlines in CH are recruiting still, but this is changing slowly as the recession catches up here, so there are a few places and companies. Just the T&C's are as different as one can imagine.
NOTE:
Termination and or Notice is either 45 (GPS) or 90 (Brookfield) days.
The $12,000 bonus due every six months will only be paid out IF you did not break any rules during that period?! We do not know which rules because if you look at the FOM or SOP there are thousands and who pays this - HU or via the Agency?- if at all? So far one has seen a Bonus and it was 5 weeks late.
Also your English version of the Contract is NOT legally binding, only the Chinese version and HU can change, edit or erase as they please! Contract states every year. Only the Agency has a copy of the Chinese version anyways.
The Agency is not liable for any payment defaults of HU, and ho would you ever prove the Agency ever received any funds!
So look at how all the other Expat contracts (Vietnam, Jet, etc.) have evolved. They start off pretty good and get eroded over time, so I can only assume the T&C's can only get worse here as the list continues to grows of those unfortunates who have to look over here for work and lively-hood.

[captseth]

Good luck with all, and thanks for the info. An informative post like this can save a lot of heartache and pain for a lot of pilots. You are correct that world economic conditions and a glut of pilots in some areas has caused some carriers to attempt to lower T's & C's.

Hainan could wind up being a great carrier in the future, and for your sake I hope that is the case.

[alghazal]

Anybody knows if Air China behaves the same way ??

[GoForIt]

I did the interview and can testify that my experience was just about the same as yours, except I was on the 767 and I did not pass the check ride. 3 out of 4 interviewing when I was there failed the check ride. Only one failed the written, and he also failed the medical. Adam told us that the HNA check airman told him that the CAAC check airman we had was feared by everyone in Air China and HNA. And I could tell our young HNA check airman guy was really uncomfortable about his role working with him, so that might have something to do with it. I came out of the Sim thinking I'd passed. I knew it wasn't a perfect ride, but felt it was all within the tolerances of a normal proficiency check. I got a text message the next day saying I'd failed. The 767 sim in PEK is old and extremely pitch sensitive.

None of us in our group have been reimbursed for our tickets, either on Hainan from SEA or on the other carriers we took to get to SEA to connect with the HNA flight. We did our first interview 5 months ago, and each of us had to make two trips so the cost added up. We have repeatedly been given excuses and asked for more documentation which we have always provided, but the last email was that we needed a receipt from the airlines with their stamp on it, and of course we bought our tickets on line. We turned in receipts, boarding passes and even baggage claim tickets, and even sent them our credit card statements showing payment. It is clear to me that they never intended to reimburse us.

Also, I have a friend in my current company who has a friend who worked for Hainan. He said his friend left because the T&C's kept changing, and the excuse was that he had to sign a contract in English and in Chinese, and then afterwards they would just say that the Chinese contract didn't say that. And of course, the law says that the Chinese contract is the one they go by, so you don't have a leg to stand on. It seems to me that if you go to HNA you can forget about the contract. You can just expect to get whatever they decide to give you.

Also, it seems that Adam is the one that gives the expat pilots their housing allowance, and I overheard a conversation he had with a expat pilot in the cafeteria that indicated the money wasn't coming through. That concerned me at the time, but you know when you're in the interview process you tend to be optimistic about everything.

At first I was very disappointed about not getting the job, but now I am now glad. I went to another overseas airline and got reimbursed with cash for my ticket the day after I arrived. My pay is on time and I get exactly what my contract says. No worries, and I work with good people. There are much better deals out there than Hainan. I would advise anyone to avoid HNA unless you are really desperate.

[Level Buster]

I am looking at a contract job with Shanghai Airlines, which on paper looks quite reasonable. The posts here are a little disturbing, and I am just hoping that these comments are confined only to Hanian, or is this typical of all chinese airlines. I would really appreciate some honest comments regarding working in China and if possible, with Shanghai.

[Cretan Airbus]

I wouldn't necessarily say this experience is confined to Hainan, and I've heard many experiences are variations of this. My experience was better, although many costs were reimbursements instead of paid up front. I think Juneyao, Deer, and Shenzhen are the exceptions; they pay most everything up front. My ticket cost was about USD 75 for round trip fees, and the airline will reimburse the hotel and other expenses, but only once the contract is signed. As with any international travel, budget for more than you plan to spend. The contractor I have is a U.S. company based in China, so there was always support here. They picked me up at the airport, and led me through each step of the process. Questions were always answered promptly, despite misinterpretations and contract changes.

As I've said in other postings, always use an agency where the company operators are in-country, and have a good business reputation in their home country. This may not be so critical with contracts in other countries, but is crucial in China. It's also a plus if you are going to an airline that has already hired pilots through that particular agency, so both you and the agency know what is coming next. I was the first for my particular airline, so I found all of the land mines. Luckily, we had a good agency that offered continuous support.

To the best of my knowledge, VOR Holdings is looking for A320 Captains for Juneyao Airlines and Sichuan Airlines, and B737 Captains for Shanghai Airlines. They were hiring for A330 Captains for China Eastern, but that may be on hold and is a very long process. VOR is a good U.S. based agency that have had a business presence in China for well over a decade.

WASINC is hiring A320 Captains for Shenzhen Airlines and Deer Air, among others. They have been in the crew leasing business a long time, and their top two management pilots moved to China to manage things first hand and improve their service - a very good move.

China is still hiring strongly relative to the rest of the world and the pay is still pretty decent. The postings you see here serve to aid those going over so you know which agency to go with, and what questions to ask. Know that despite the best planning, things can go awry. China is not for the impatient, nor the faint of heart.

Best of luck -

Cretan

[Level Buster]

Thanks for the info Cretan, I have already applied through Aeropersonnel and so far they seem helpful. It sounds like the recruitment process is long winded but the rewards are great. How did you find living and working in china.

[maxv]

Hello to everyone!...any info about Hainan taking Emb 145 in the fleet for the near future?...
Thanks a lot for the answerssss!

[Cretan Airbus]

Living in Shanghai is easy as far as city life goes. Relatively inexpensive housing, very cheap transportation, and plenty of international restaurants and import stores if you want a taste of home. I myself am not much of a city kid, and Shanghai is a VERY big city. It is, however, very safe, and not quite as congested as I imagined.

There are many expat pilots here, and certainly countless expats in general. If you can tolerate city life, this is a decent place. If you can get a commuting schedule...even better.

Cretan

[Chippybus]

Hainan no longer recruiting I was one of the last through! Brookfield are attrocious, poor comms.

[sec 3]

Chippy, how you likin' it at Hainan ?

[EPASZ]

RE:

you should try Eon Aviation Corporation Limited for pilot recruitment in China. It was set up by expat pilots working in China and according to pilots i know they seem to be doing a pretty good job

[Mr.White]

GoForIt,

Could you share your experience in your new airline,sounds pretty good, what fleet are you flying in?

[bumba]

... any latest!

[555orange]

Hey guys.

I know this is idealistic, butI say try and shop the market and consider the operations that treat you the best for your interviews. They will probably treat you the best at work too. Personally i went with an operation that took care of me for the interview. So, by extension they benefitted by aquiring the talent, and the others had to keep looking.

I do have to say though, after working contract in this area for many year, you need to be flexible. There is not the level of human rights and consideration of the employee as one might have had in a wester culture area.

That said, they do have Lawyers, and labor laws, so get a copy of your chinese contract and take it to an international firm, pay a little bit and get a Lawyer to go over it. He will be able to tell you where the holes are and where you can get the company later if they screw you. You need to do this because you will get guidance on what evidences you need to save throughout your contract. If you ever leave, then you have some ammunition. You have to pre-empt. Because alot of it is designed around what they think they will most likely get away with, NOT what is ethical and normal business practices.

For eg: there is a law in an Asian country I worked that stated that a company cannot revise your salary down if your on contract unless you agree within 7 days. If you don't respond within 7, then you are deemed to have agreed to the adjustment. How would I have known had I not consulted a lawyer?

[169west]

... any up-date?

... any up-date on interview process?

[737XL Pilot]

169west!

I've got an interview in Sep. Will send an update to thread "Hainan Airlines".

[169west]

737

thanks! with which agency?

[737XL Pilot]

I'm going with Paramount.

Believe there's plenty of agencies representing Hainan though.

[169west]

thanks
...anything on how they will interview DEC?

... pass/failure rate?