Trained in Florida in Feb/March 2010
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Trained in Florida in Feb/March 2010
I just came back from a JAA PPL training in Fort Pierce, Florida. As I never went to any other school it is not possible for me to compare. Hence this post is only about this writer's experience at EFT. For more detailed information about training in the US in general read the posts of Backpacker and Destinationsky about the same topic and you will have a better idea. (links at the bottom of this post)
Overall the experience has been positive, and I am pleased with the choice. The accommodation I was given was of a good quality/price ratio, all instructors were always ready to assist, the general mood is professional and warm.
A lot of the students go to the European Flight Training to study for CPL, CFI or ATPL , yet there are students from all walks of life and every age-group, and everybody has to start w/ a PPL anyway. So there is no 'whatyoudo'-type of discrimination at all. Most go there to pass, so I would say the mood is rather studious and individualistic.
The biggest drawback was the weather ; I arrived on the 9th of Feb when Washington was halted because of their second snowstorm in a week. So the TSA did not process any fingerprints and I was only cleared to start the training 10 days after the arrival! So even though in 'normal' conditions the process should be quite fast it is worth the money to get a TSA before you go. And once the training did start there were a few days when the wind was not ideal for a beginner's level, especially during mid-day.
The second drawback is that the school is popular. The occupancy rate is high, which means that if you miss your slot (weather, sickness) it is difficult to catch up and you might have to extend your stay.
So, overall the training was completed in 22 days of flying, out of being 38 days at the school. 10 days were lost because of the TSA and 6 because of either the weather or the compulsory rest-day of the instructor. Backpacker and Destinationsky have both completed their training in, I think, 22 days. It is indeed possible and probably more so in Oct~Nov. But I would anyway recommend to take some buffer, just in case.
Would I go back? Yes. Any regret? No. Would I consider them for further training? Most likely as I am a European national, currently residing in Hong Kong and there are only few other options in the same price/time range.
Just FYI.
Destinationsky's:
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...nest-view.html
Backpacker's:
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...-part-1-a.html
Overall the experience has been positive, and I am pleased with the choice. The accommodation I was given was of a good quality/price ratio, all instructors were always ready to assist, the general mood is professional and warm.
A lot of the students go to the European Flight Training to study for CPL, CFI or ATPL , yet there are students from all walks of life and every age-group, and everybody has to start w/ a PPL anyway. So there is no 'whatyoudo'-type of discrimination at all. Most go there to pass, so I would say the mood is rather studious and individualistic.
The biggest drawback was the weather ; I arrived on the 9th of Feb when Washington was halted because of their second snowstorm in a week. So the TSA did not process any fingerprints and I was only cleared to start the training 10 days after the arrival! So even though in 'normal' conditions the process should be quite fast it is worth the money to get a TSA before you go. And once the training did start there were a few days when the wind was not ideal for a beginner's level, especially during mid-day.
The second drawback is that the school is popular. The occupancy rate is high, which means that if you miss your slot (weather, sickness) it is difficult to catch up and you might have to extend your stay.
So, overall the training was completed in 22 days of flying, out of being 38 days at the school. 10 days were lost because of the TSA and 6 because of either the weather or the compulsory rest-day of the instructor. Backpacker and Destinationsky have both completed their training in, I think, 22 days. It is indeed possible and probably more so in Oct~Nov. But I would anyway recommend to take some buffer, just in case.
Would I go back? Yes. Any regret? No. Would I consider them for further training? Most likely as I am a European national, currently residing in Hong Kong and there are only few other options in the same price/time range.
Just FYI.
Destinationsky's:
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...nest-view.html
Backpacker's:
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...-part-1-a.html
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Well written! I'm going to add a reference to this thread to my thread, just in case.
Just for the record, I did my PPL in 21 out of 22 days. One non-flying day was due to the weather.
Just for the record, I did my PPL in 21 out of 22 days. One non-flying day was due to the weather.
How long did it take between paying the TSA fee, and getting approval to be fingerprinted?
I paid 10 working days ago, and got an email at the time saying to expect an update in 5. They never answer their phone.
I paid 10 working days ago, and got an email at the time saying to expect an update in 5. They never answer their phone.
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Nice post and well done on finishing!
I agree with the buffer zone though. I did mine in 21 days of training with the skills test on the 22nd day Am - a few hours before i flew home!
I cut it a bit fine and i could have been screwed if the weather closed in as it did the day before skills test! To be fair, i would have liked a few days off before i flew home just as winding down time!
I agree with the buffer zone though. I did mine in 21 days of training with the skills test on the 22nd day Am - a few hours before i flew home!
I cut it a bit fine and i could have been screwed if the weather closed in as it did the day before skills test! To be fair, i would have liked a few days off before i flew home just as winding down time!
Looks very typical of Florida flight schools. Son arrived after New Year but they had not warned him of extra days Govmnt offices were closed so about five days before he could fly. Some changes and upgrades to course required because aircraft were not available. Instructor's family issues caused some extra delay to add to weather. However willingness and professionalism of all instructors, good humour and flexibility to get stuff done made it a positive experience.
SoCal Ap: The flight school has to confirm that I am a student *before* I pay the TSA fee. This they did within a few hours; I have now gone past that stage, paid the fee, and am still waiting! Hopefully they'll reply to the email I sent yesterday, as they never called me back after my answerphone message 
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Advice on US Intensive PPL courses
I've read the really useful information already posted on doing the PPL in the US. Thanks to those who've posted this. And will be checking out EFT and JAA.
Are there any other schools/clubs that anyone out there would recommend please? And does anyone know anywhere in Southern Spain that is good - a long shot, I'm just thinking that the weather there should be good and I speak the lingo.
Thanks in advance
Are there any other schools/clubs that anyone out there would recommend please? And does anyone know anywhere in Southern Spain that is good - a long shot, I'm just thinking that the weather there should be good and I speak the lingo.
Thanks in advance
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SoCal
I was thinking of going to Florida to get the training on the T6 and then the P51.
I already hold an FAA CPL/IR and have a US crew visa, do I need to do this TSA thing ?
I already hold an FAA CPL/IR and have a US crew visa, do I need to do this TSA thing ?
Last edited by A and C; 9th Jan 2013 at 20:51.
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A&C, I have not seen SoCal around here for a while. This thread is from 2010...
I would not know the ultimate answer to your question though. On the one hand, if you've never been vetted by the TSA they might want you to go through their process. On the other hand, you're not going for an initial airmens certificate, nor for a type rating of a large aircraft. So you would not fall into one of the classes the TSA has defined. You might want to contact the TSA about this directly.
I would not know the ultimate answer to your question though. On the one hand, if you've never been vetted by the TSA they might want you to go through their process. On the other hand, you're not going for an initial airmens certificate, nor for a type rating of a large aircraft. So you would not fall into one of the classes the TSA has defined. You might want to contact the TSA about this directly.
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Apply for it.
Its not worth buggering around risking getting deported.
Your crew visa only works when your operating if you use it for anything else they will get there knickers in a twist deport you and then cancel it.
Its not worth buggering around risking getting deported.
Your crew visa only works when your operating if you use it for anything else they will get there knickers in a twist deport you and then cancel it.
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I think you guys are probably right in the fact that I need to talk to the TSA, my FAA CPL/ IR and Flight Engineers tickets were issued long before any of this 9\11 paranoia kicked off so the TSA will never have had me on their records.
I guess a bit of paperwork that might not be needed is better than getting on the wrong side of authority's.
I guess a bit of paperwork that might not be needed is better than getting on the wrong side of authority's.
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It's probably a good idea talking to them, but I think you need neither visa nor TSA approval. These are needed for training towards a license or a rating, but, e.g., not for a BFR.
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As far as I know you only need the visa and TSA approval if you are training for the issue of a licence or rating. So if you are just doing some joyrides in the T6/P51 and there is no rating or licence involved then you don't need the approval.
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I don't think technically he needs one either.
But if your not on the records and some local pillock gets there knickers in a twist it can be a whole heap of hurt. And its really not worth getting banned from entry for the rest of your life.
But if your not on the records and some local pillock gets there knickers in a twist it can be a whole heap of hurt. And its really not worth getting banned from entry for the rest of your life.
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Don't lump visa and TSA together. They're totally different beasts, managed by two totally different agencies, under totally different legislation, for totally different purposes. The only link between them is that TSA approval may be withheld or withdrawn if you are found to be in the US without a valid immigration status. But what a "valid immigration status" is, is determined by the department of immigration (or whatever it's called) and not by the TSA.
(Heck, if you apply for a visa you will be fingerprinted electronically. But for some obscure reason these electronic fingerprints cannot be used for the TSA process... That's showing how well these two departments work together.)
There may be situations where you need neither, one or both of them.
An M-1 visa is required when your primary purpose of visiting the US is training of some sort. Whether that's for a student exchange program, vocation studies or pilot training doesn't matter. If the training is only incidental to your visit, you would not need an M-1 visa, but another visa (or be admitted under the VWP) for whatever the primary purpose of your visit is.
It is my personal opinion (but I am not a visa specialist or anything) that if A&C goes to the US specifically to get trained on the T6/P51 (or fiddles the crew roster so that his employer schedules him to fly to the US at a specific day and time of his choosing, with an extended stay before the flight home) that his primary purpose for visiting the US would be flight training, so an M-1 visa would be required. On the other hand, if you simply have a standing agreement with the training provider that you can have a go whenever your work happens to take you to the US, then this should be possible on a crew visa.
Another issue is that the M-1 visa can only be sponsored by organizations that are connected to the SEVIS system. Within the flight training establishment, that's limited to Part-141 flight schools (typically the large, integrated training schools). So Part-61 schools (the Mom&Pop outfits) will not be able to help you get an M-1 visa. I honestly have no idea how you would solve this dilemma officially and legally, but I suspect a lot of "primary purpose" training at part-61 schools is done under the VWP.
TSA clearance is specific for flight training, so that the TSA can verify you are not a terrorist or something. Basically what the TSA wants to achieve is a vetting of everybody who attends flight training in the USA (or under the FAA oversight - if you do training for an FAA license in a foreign country this also applies).
The initial legislation surrounding the TSA process simply said that everybody who wanted flight training, needed to be vetted. No exceptions. Later on the TSA relaxed this by making exceptions for certain classes of training. Essentially they now want you to go through the vetting process when
- You do training for the initial issue of an airmens certificate. (E.g. your initial training, whatever and whereever that happens to be, under the FAA system.)
- You do training for a rating that greatly enhances your ability to fly an airliner into a building. (Sounds cruel but that's almost the exact wording that's hidden somewhere in the legislation.) Practically speaking this means an ME or IR rating, or a type rating for aircraft over 12500 lbs.
Since A&C already has an FAA license obtained well before 9/11, will not train for an ME or IR, and will train on aircraft that have an MTOW less than 12500 lbs (although the P51 is only a tad under that number...) it is my opinion that TSA clearance would not be required.
From the TSA website:
https://www.flightschoolcandidates.g...c§ion=WN#C
But once again, I'm not working for the TSA or the US immigration department, so my advice here is worth exactly what you paid for it...
(Heck, if you apply for a visa you will be fingerprinted electronically. But for some obscure reason these electronic fingerprints cannot be used for the TSA process... That's showing how well these two departments work together.)
There may be situations where you need neither, one or both of them.
An M-1 visa is required when your primary purpose of visiting the US is training of some sort. Whether that's for a student exchange program, vocation studies or pilot training doesn't matter. If the training is only incidental to your visit, you would not need an M-1 visa, but another visa (or be admitted under the VWP) for whatever the primary purpose of your visit is.
It is my personal opinion (but I am not a visa specialist or anything) that if A&C goes to the US specifically to get trained on the T6/P51 (or fiddles the crew roster so that his employer schedules him to fly to the US at a specific day and time of his choosing, with an extended stay before the flight home) that his primary purpose for visiting the US would be flight training, so an M-1 visa would be required. On the other hand, if you simply have a standing agreement with the training provider that you can have a go whenever your work happens to take you to the US, then this should be possible on a crew visa.
Another issue is that the M-1 visa can only be sponsored by organizations that are connected to the SEVIS system. Within the flight training establishment, that's limited to Part-141 flight schools (typically the large, integrated training schools). So Part-61 schools (the Mom&Pop outfits) will not be able to help you get an M-1 visa. I honestly have no idea how you would solve this dilemma officially and legally, but I suspect a lot of "primary purpose" training at part-61 schools is done under the VWP.
TSA clearance is specific for flight training, so that the TSA can verify you are not a terrorist or something. Basically what the TSA wants to achieve is a vetting of everybody who attends flight training in the USA (or under the FAA oversight - if you do training for an FAA license in a foreign country this also applies).
The initial legislation surrounding the TSA process simply said that everybody who wanted flight training, needed to be vetted. No exceptions. Later on the TSA relaxed this by making exceptions for certain classes of training. Essentially they now want you to go through the vetting process when
- You do training for the initial issue of an airmens certificate. (E.g. your initial training, whatever and whereever that happens to be, under the FAA system.)
- You do training for a rating that greatly enhances your ability to fly an airliner into a building. (Sounds cruel but that's almost the exact wording that's hidden somewhere in the legislation.) Practically speaking this means an ME or IR rating, or a type rating for aircraft over 12500 lbs.
Since A&C already has an FAA license obtained well before 9/11, will not train for an ME or IR, and will train on aircraft that have an MTOW less than 12500 lbs (although the P51 is only a tad under that number...) it is my opinion that TSA clearance would not be required.
From the TSA website:
Category 3 Clarification - For flight training in the operation of aircraft with a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 lbs. or less, Candidates must obtain AFSP approval for the following three training events:
Single Engine Land (SEL)
-- Includes initial Airman's Certificate, including a private, recreational, or sport pilot certificate. If a private and/or commercial license is the candidate's initial FAA license, it is considered an initial airman's certificate and is not exempt.
Instrument Rating (IR)
Multi Engine Land (MEL)
Each of these three events requires a separate training request.
All other training events on aircraft with MTOW of 12,500 lbs. or less are exempt from AFSP regulations, including Commercial Pilot License (CPL), Airline Transport Pilot License (ATPL), and Certified Flight Instructor (CFI). These events are exempt only if the candidate holds an FAA stand-alone pilot certificate.
Single Engine Land (SEL)
-- Includes initial Airman's Certificate, including a private, recreational, or sport pilot certificate. If a private and/or commercial license is the candidate's initial FAA license, it is considered an initial airman's certificate and is not exempt.
Instrument Rating (IR)
Multi Engine Land (MEL)
Each of these three events requires a separate training request.
All other training events on aircraft with MTOW of 12,500 lbs. or less are exempt from AFSP regulations, including Commercial Pilot License (CPL), Airline Transport Pilot License (ATPL), and Certified Flight Instructor (CFI). These events are exempt only if the candidate holds an FAA stand-alone pilot certificate.
But once again, I'm not working for the TSA or the US immigration department, so my advice here is worth exactly what you paid for it...
Last edited by BackPacker; 10th Jan 2013 at 14:45.
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To settle the visa issue further, look at this page:
Visitor Visas - Business and Pleasure
Note the following:
Visitor Visas - Business and Pleasure
Note the following:
Pleasure, Tourism, Medical Treatment - Visitor Visas (B-2) - As examples, if the purpose of your planned travel is recreational in nature, including tourism, vacation (holiday), amusement, visits with friends or relatives, rest, medical treatment, activities of a fraternal, social, or service nature, and participation by amateurs, who will receive no remuneration, in musical, sports and similar events or contests, then a visitor visa (B-2) would be the appropriate type of visa for your travel. If you are going to the U.S. primarily for tourism, but want to take a short course of study which is recreational (and not for credit towards a degree), and the course is less than 18 hours per week, this is permitted on a visitor visa. As an example, if you are taking a vacation to the U.S., and during this vacation you would like to take a two-day cooking class for your enjoyment, and there is no credit earned, then this would be permitted on a visitor visa. A consular officer will determine the visa category you will need based on the purpose of your travel, and your supporting documentation.
For more information regarding travel and tourism in the United States please visit DiscoverAmerica.org.
Persons planning to travel to the U.S. for a different purpose such as students, temporary workers, crewmen, journalists, etc., must apply for a different visa in the appropriate category. If you are taking a course of study which is 18 hours or more a week, you will need a student visa. When traveling to the U.S. to attend seminars or conferences for credit towards a degree, then you’ll need a student visa.
For more information regarding travel and tourism in the United States please visit DiscoverAmerica.org.
Persons planning to travel to the U.S. for a different purpose such as students, temporary workers, crewmen, journalists, etc., must apply for a different visa in the appropriate category. If you are taking a course of study which is 18 hours or more a week, you will need a student visa. When traveling to the U.S. to attend seminars or conferences for credit towards a degree, then you’ll need a student visa.
