Easy PAN PAN "Low Fuel" LGW 1/3/15

[Mr Angry from Purley]

UNLESS, of course, there is another side to the story.....

Mr Angry of Purley

WTF are you on about I never said a word??

[tubby linton]

Was VJW tankering fuel for the next sector???

[Kimmeros]

Expecting to land below Final Reserve would be a Mayday call. I think it's unlikely the CAA would approve a manual that goes against their own guidance.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Re. post 10, I couldn't agree more. Qualification and behaviour well out of step. I have seen shockingly bad attitudes from some trainers or highly experienced pilots who should know better.

[off watch]

For info, no mention of PAN but .....

Extract from UK CAA CAP493 Manual of Air Traffic Services Part 1:

Fuel Shortage
4.41 Controllers are not required to provide priority to pilots of aircraft that
have indicated or suggested that they are becoming short of fuel
or have used the RTF Phraseology “MINIMUM FUEL”. The term
MINIMUM FUEL indicates that the pilot, having committed to land at a
specific aerodrome, calculates that any change to the existing clearance
to that aerodrome may result in landing with less than the planned final
reserve fuel.

4.42 Controllers shall respond to pilots who indicate or suggest that they
are becoming short of fuel or who have declared “MINIMUM FUEL”
by asking the pilot to confirm whether or not he wishes to declare
an emergency after confirming to the pilot, the estimated delay he
can expect to receive expressed in minutes, if the pilot is en-route
to, is joining, or is established in an airborne hold, or by expressing
the remaining track mileage from touchdown, if the aircraft is being
vectored to an approach.

4.43 Once in possession of either the estimated delay or remaining track
mileage, pilots will determine whether or not they should declare
an emergency. Pilots declaring an emergency will either respond
affirmatively or use the following RTF phraseology “MAYDAY, MAYDAY,
MAYDAY” or “MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY FUEL” and controllers shall
provide such aircraft with flight priority category A. The term “MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY FUEL” indicates that the pilot calculates the usable
fuel predicted to be available upon landing at the nearest aerodrome
where a safe landing can be made is less than the planned final reserve
fuel.

[fireflybob]

CAP413 states:-

Pilots shall declare a situation of fuel emergency by broadcasting ‘MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY FUEL’, when the calculated usable fuel predicted to be available upon landing at the nearest aerodrome where a safe landing can be made is less than the planned final reserve fuel.

[Pininstauld]

Move along - Nothing to see here

The company culture (and SOP) at EZY is to take plan fuel unless there are sound operational reasons for doing otherwise.

The PAN call is triggered when the captain calculates that the aircraft "may" land with less than final reserve fuel (i.e. 1.0 to 1.2 tonnes typically).

The MAYDAY call is triggered when the captain calculates that the aircraft "will" land with less than final reserve fuel.

As a skipper I usually found one or other "sound operational reason" to justify having something in hand over plan fuel. The company wouldn't have agreed with my reasoning but I always thought it better to land at the planned destination, and still be able to reach the alternate legally, following an unexpected go-around. Minimum fuel might be OK but only provided that everything in the OFP has been calculated correctly - sadly I found this wasn't always the case.

There were at least 2 "landing below-final reserve" incidents while I was there, but I never saw any change of policy so presumably the bean counters still think they've got the right balance between cost and safety.

Above my pay grade to comment on that.

[Del Prado]

ATC was very good too as you'd expect, although she did keep forgetting to give them the updated wind when they asked for the weather (cloud layer and vis was never going to be a factor to be fair), which was getting on my nerves so must have been getting on theirs.

If you need a wind check just ask, don't let it get on your nerves.

[VJW]

Kimmeros you are quite correct. Minimum Fuel call if you are committed to an airport (i.e. no longer have alternate fuel to go anywhere else), and MAYDAY if you anticipate using Final Reserves. Our last recurrent had an exercise with exactly that situation. The lack of priority for the Easy yesterday only confirmed that to me. He was given no4 to land with no delay expected after his PAN. PAN was officially not the correct call, he declared Minimum fuel and then with that clearance from ATC, both he and ATC should know that any further delay might cause him to declare a MAYDAY. Problem with yesterday though was it wasn't due to no contact at minimums, it was due to windshear, so there was no real guarantee second time round would work either other then he did ask quite rightly if anyone else behind him had no landed to which the answer was yes. While I believe MAYDAY might be something we all really try to avoid saying, I most likely would have gone from Minimum fuel to MAYDAY in the same time he went from Minimum Fuel to PANPAN.

While I'm not sure what their planning consisted of, I can say that once in that situation they handled it as calmly as they could, and were extremely professional sounding over the freq.

[VJW]

Del Prado - come on mate. You just did a windshear escape manoeuvre, you declare a PAN (rightly or wrongly) and you ask for the weather and ATC gives you everything but the wind? Really?? You want them to have to make another transmission for a wind check? The did of course, but still...

[VJW]

tubby linton VJW was the Captain of a flight and landed with that much fuel, simple as that, I didn't get lucky.

[VJW]

Just found the METAR from yesterday, confirming what I said earlier about being ok one minute and significantly different 30 mins later, remembering WS was reported at 1750 on the ATIS.

EGKK 01/1720 220/15 6000 BKN020 9/6 Q0998
EGKK 01/1750 220/19G40 1800 +RA SCT012 BKN016 8/6 Q0998

[fireflybob]

FT 01/03/2015 11:02->
TAF EGKK 011102Z 0112/0218 25014KT 9999 SCT030
TEMPO 0114/0119 26018G28KT 6000 SHRA
PROB30 TEMPO 0115/0118 26026G40KT 3000 +SHRAGS BKN013CB
BECMG 0206/0209 28018G28KT
PROB40 TEMPO 0207/0210 4000 SHRASN BKN010
BECMG 0216/0218 25012KT=

01/03/2015 11:01->
TAF EGSS 011101Z 0112/0218 25015KT 9999 SCT030
TEMPO 0112/0120 26018G28KT
TEMPO 0114/0120 6000 SHRA
PROB40 TEMPO 0116/0118 25025G38KT 2000 +SHRAGS BKN014CB
PROB30
TEMPO 0201/0204 3500 SHRASN BKN012
BECMG 0208/0211 27020G30KT
PROB30 TEMPO 0208/0211 2000 SHRASN BKN007
BECMG 0215/0218 24012KT=

FT 01/03/2015 11:01->
TAF EGGW 011101Z 0112/0212 24017KT 9999 SCT030
TEMPO 0112/0121 25020G30KT
TEMPO 0113/0119 6000 SHRA
PROB40 TEMPO 0115/0118 25026G40KT 2000 +SHRAGS BKN012CB
PROB30
TEMPO 0200/0203 3000 SHRASN BKN009
BECMG 0208/0211 27020G30KT
PROB30 TEMPO 0208/0211 2000 SHRASN -SHSN BKN006=

A PROB30/40 of sporty weather at destination and alternate would get my attention for loading some extra fuel bearing in mind that TEMPO is a change of up to one hour.

[VJW]

Now it becomes obvious why I landed with +6000kg, and hopefully my post previous vindicates my initial decision to let the FO land and then subsequently change my mind.

I don't care who you work for, surely the above constitutes loading a couple kg more then minimum plog?!

[ESQU]

A lot of Ops Manuals allow 'PROB x TEMPOs' of sporty weather or improvements to be disregarded. Whether that's sensible is probably down to experience.

[Tom!]

As I often say to FO's during the planning stage: "It's not because it's legal, it is a good idea."

[fireflybob]

It's a brave pilot who departs with plog fuel when both destination and alternate(s) are showing PROB 30/40 limiting weather.

Big difference between doing "things right" (aka management) and doing "the right thing" (aka leadership).

Also another factor is when destination and alternates lie along the forecast line of a frontal system or trough.