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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 14:26   #1 (permalink)
 
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Cabin crew take your seats for take-off

Since the Tenerife accident phraseology was changed so as to avoid any confusion on the FD as to whether a take-off clearance had been issued or not. As far as I can recollect this also included the PA from FD to c/c to take their seats. [Some companies use chimes and no PA]. I have noted that a particular company I fly with regularly makes the PA using the term "take-off" rather than "departure". The fact that I have heard it on all of their flights would indicate that it's SOP. Purely out of curiousity I'm interested in the opinion of professional FD crews regarding this.
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 16:57   #2 (permalink)
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Cannot see a problem. Only 'given' when actually cleared for departure/take-off/whatever-you-want-to-call-it and ONLY after receipt of cabin Secure/ready/whatever-you-want-to-call-it and it mirrors the ATC clearance.
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 18:56   #3 (permalink)
 
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Your answer confuses me a little BOAC. ATC does not clear an a/c for "departure". However, I deduce that the "take your seats for take-off" to the c/c would only be used after having received take off clearance from ATC, thus no confusion is in fact possible. Fair enough, that explains it. I was only curious because I have flown on many different operators and only this particular one uses "take off" in its PA call.
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 19:34   #4 (permalink)
 
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Usually the call to the cabin is done when line up clearance is received.

My last airline used "seats for departure" for the very reason you state in your first post.

My current airline uses "seats for take off".
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 19:46   #5 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
My current airline uses "seats for take off".
Still too many naughty words I think. Wouldn't "Cabin Crew, take your seats" be enough, either for take-off, landing or just before you do a loop?
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 20:36   #6 (permalink)
 
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Yep, absolutely. That's what I use and it appears to satisfy all but the nasal, whiney, SOP gurus!

Despite petitioning the boss for a change of wording it has remained that way, ummm, forever!

Last edited by Lord Spandex Masher; 23rd Dec 2012 at 20:36.
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 20:37   #7 (permalink)
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Confusion?The only reason I mentioned 'departure' is because you did! That is why I posted "departure/take-off/whatever-you-want-to-call-i"

Simple answer - 3 dings on the call button?
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 21:26   #8 (permalink)
 
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BOAC, I think weīre saying the same thing but itīs not a question of what I want to call it. The point I was trying to make is that the words take-off is now only used by ATC when issuing a take-off clearance, and likewise only used by the FD when acknowledging a take-off clearance. In all other instances the word departure is used. ATC use the term departure in all cases with the exception of an actual take-off clearance. I simply thought that the same policy/logic would be applied by airlines in their SOPs and thatīs what sparked off my curiousity.
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Old 24th Dec 2012, 05:09   #9 (permalink)
 
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We say "cabin crew please be seated for take off" prior to receiving a clearance to either take off or even line up. The reasons being, sometimes its a short taxi, large aircraft with lots of pax, 11 cabin crew, busy airports were you get inserted between two landing aircraft etc.

If we did the PA after we got cleared to line up there would be numerous occasions where we occupy the runway waiting for the cabin ready memo forcing go-arounds etc.

I do not think it is inappropriate to use the word take-off on the PA. It is as likely to be misinterpreted by us both, remember its one of the pilots saying it, as it would be to just line up without a clearance. There are no call signs given in the PA, the other pilot can't hear it. It is totally out of context.
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Old 24th Dec 2012, 08:14   #10 (permalink)
 
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"Rottweilers to your baskets" was the funniest I ever heard.
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Old 24th Dec 2012, 08:58   #11 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
I do not think it is inappropriate to use the word take-off on the PA. It is as likely to be misinterpreted by us both, remember its one of the pilots saying it, as it would be to just line up without a clearance. There are no call signs given in the PA, the other pilot can't hear it. It is totally out of context.
Hmm, if you seriously believe that SloppyJoe you could be the next Tenerife! I understand what the OP's point. I wholeheartedly agree and endorse that the words "take off" on the FD should only ever be spoken as readback to the ATC clearance.
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Old 25th Dec 2012, 10:28   #12 (permalink)
 
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Use chimes/flash seat belt signs. Problem solved.
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Old 25th Dec 2012, 12:57   #13 (permalink)
 
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Company I work for (UK LoCO) doesn't use anything. Once the cabin manager has given the cabin secure it means that the cabin crew are also seated at their stations. Same also applies for landing.
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 10:52   #14 (permalink)
 
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Exactly. When they report "Cabin Ready" it means they must already be seated and belted.

Unless Cabin Ready means differently elsewhere?
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 14:12   #15 (permalink)
 
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In BA the "cabin crew seats for take-off" call is made by the CSD/Purser who then reports "cabin secure" to the FD. The flight crew sound the chimes when cleared to line up but do not make an announcement. I can't see a terminology problem here.
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 14:46   #16 (permalink)
 
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Airclues Yes that works in an airline where there is situational awareness amongst the cabin crew. Unfortunately where I work we are required to inform them 4 times prior to landing. Yes 4 times. This is not from flight ops but a requirement passed to us by cabin services after some were still standing during landing. Tail wagging dog? Sobelena The Tenerife accident was a total lack of CRM. If I think the captain is setting thrust prior to receiving a clearance I will call the tower. If I can't get a response and the CN continues despite my protest then my feet are going on the brakes and hands on the thrust levers.

Last edited by SloppyJoe; 26th Dec 2012 at 14:49.
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 17:39   #17 (permalink)
 
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When does the announcement have to be made by the FD?

Rwy in Sight
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 21:09   #18 (permalink)
 
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Tenerife was a CRM failure following a misunderstanding because of the ATC phraseology at the time. ATC said "stand-by for take-off". The "stand-by" part was stepped on and only the "take-off" was heard from which the Captain made a wrong assumption and, yes, CRM failed.
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 10:24   #19 (permalink)
 
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Having to make a PA after being cleared for takeoff is one extra diversion from what the pilots should be thinking about/monitoring. ( Correct runway, flaps are set, correct intersection for performance data, what thrust should I see , where is the wind coming from etc etc, what was that heading he just gave me?) . Same as flicking lights on etc.Rubbish SOP's that don't account for the fact that the human brain can only do one thing at a time. best way is to have the cabin manager ding the flight deck when the cabin is secure and that's the end of it.
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 18:08   #20 (permalink)

 
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wow...never in the course of human events has so much been wasted on so little.

we tell the stews to sit down for takeoff when takeoff is imminent. the stews like it so they don't fall down while we takeoff...and it also lets the dumb passengers who are not paying attention anyway that the flight attendants are sitting down for a reason and not just ignoring the clampets.

AND JUST TO BE SURE, as we are cleared on to the runway we ding the chimes three times...that is the last chance to hear from the stews that something aint right or get them on the beaver bench.


we ding three times when we put the gear down (undercart to you) for the last chance to sit before landing.
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