Barely controllable Tu-154 - another UA232
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I spotted our plane behaving weird first on BBC.
Live by Pulkovo, was a passenger on TU-s many times, never saw them, ordinary boring things, so I would say "posessed" ! :o))
They better tell all what happened, because a passenger starts looking at them with suspicion, total circus.
Did they install on it a computer? 10 years ago? It seems to do the opposite of what a pilot would want it to do, like, a totally self-will behaving plane. And it seems it took the crew a while to get the angle of how to fight this, eh, sudden phenomena. Our planes are usually sturdy and simple and hand-driven, how can it not respond at all! to what the crew "tells it" to do? It must be all broken inside entirely. But then, if its readings read wrong parameters, it wouldn't take off - in the first place, they'd cut it. So it happened after the take-off.
?
The only thing I heard as a rumour when TU-154 become uncontrollable is when it is tossed in a thunderstorm cloud by an air current higher than it's 11 thousand km, a sudden toss to over 12 thousand km. Either the air becomes too thin for it there or something - and it's a defect in the design - they don't stand sudden tossing upwards over their "ceiling".
But that some pilots manage as know what to do then, but most (ours)are not trained for that occurance.
With wheels - it is because Soviet aerodrome "state standards" :o) allowed for up to 10 centimetre holes between the beton slabs on the run-way :o) there are a lot of small northern aerodromes and old aerodromes, and the requirement to TU designers was that a plane should not mind holes in the runway :o))))))
Live by Pulkovo, was a passenger on TU-s many times, never saw them, ordinary boring things, so I would say "posessed" ! :o))
They better tell all what happened, because a passenger starts looking at them with suspicion, total circus.
Did they install on it a computer? 10 years ago? It seems to do the opposite of what a pilot would want it to do, like, a totally self-will behaving plane. And it seems it took the crew a while to get the angle of how to fight this, eh, sudden phenomena. Our planes are usually sturdy and simple and hand-driven, how can it not respond at all! to what the crew "tells it" to do? It must be all broken inside entirely. But then, if its readings read wrong parameters, it wouldn't take off - in the first place, they'd cut it. So it happened after the take-off.
?
The only thing I heard as a rumour when TU-154 become uncontrollable is when it is tossed in a thunderstorm cloud by an air current higher than it's 11 thousand km, a sudden toss to over 12 thousand km. Either the air becomes too thin for it there or something - and it's a defect in the design - they don't stand sudden tossing upwards over their "ceiling".
But that some pilots manage as know what to do then, but most (ours)are not trained for that occurance.
With wheels - it is because Soviet aerodrome "state standards" :o) allowed for up to 10 centimetre holes between the beton slabs on the run-way :o) there are a lot of small northern aerodromes and old aerodromes, and the requirement to TU designers was that a plane should not mind holes in the runway :o))))))
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Either the air becomes too thin for it there or something - and it's a defect in the design - they don't stand sudden tossing upwards over their "ceiling".
Some more interpretation for you:
He will be landing for sure - but how?
Of course he's going to land, but he'll fall apart !!
Just hold it, just hold it. Come on come on come on...
Good good good. Just guess it, guess it. Yest! Well done etc...
Of course he's going to land, but he'll fall apart !!
Just hold it, just hold it. Come on come on come on...
Good good good. Just guess it, guess it. Yest! Well done etc...
Last edited by Runaway Gun; 5th May 2011 at 18:22. Reason: Apologies to Alice - I did not see your earlier reply.
Glad to hear from yaw-damper et al - I was hoping we'd get some experienced -154 systems input.
A question for any pilot experienced with fuselage-mounted engines - that close to the centerline, can they deliver much useful yaw control using differential thrust?
A question for any pilot experienced with fuselage-mounted engines - that close to the centerline, can they deliver much useful yaw control using differential thrust?
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Going by the healthy dose of rudder needed on V1 cuts or OEI missed approaches on fuselage-mounted types I should think differential thrust control should be possible.
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pattern_is_full
A question for any pilot experienced with fuselage-mounted engines - that close to the centerline, can they deliver much useful yaw control using differential thrust?
A question for any pilot experienced with fuselage-mounted engines - that close to the centerline, can they deliver much useful yaw control using differential thrust?
No. Only a little change in yaw. (B727 experience)
Walder
Going by the healthy dose of rudder needed on V1 cuts or OEI missed approaches on fuselage-mounted types
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An2 driver,
ABSU Ra-56s may easily be disconnected with just minor effect for flight stability.
RP-56 are in fact boosters and their failure results in a complete inability to control the aircraft.
ABSU Ra-56s may easily be disconnected with just minor effect for flight stability.
RP-56 are in fact boosters and their failure results in a complete inability to control the aircraft.
"Roger" and thanks to D, W, and Z.
The reason I asked is that this crew obviously had some limited directional control - they were able to "bias" the heading, even through the constant rolling, to eventually get lined up with the runway.
If I followed the videos right, a right 270 back over the airport, two left 90s to turn approximately downwind and base, apparently not able to make a third left 90 to final in time, so another right 270 for lineup.
Some - but not much - yaw control via 1 and 3 engine thrust would fit with that picture. Would love to find out what really happened - control techniques as well as what broke.
The reason I asked is that this crew obviously had some limited directional control - they were able to "bias" the heading, even through the constant rolling, to eventually get lined up with the runway.
If I followed the videos right, a right 270 back over the airport, two left 90s to turn approximately downwind and base, apparently not able to make a third left 90 to final in time, so another right 270 for lineup.
Some - but not much - yaw control via 1 and 3 engine thrust would fit with that picture. Would love to find out what really happened - control techniques as well as what broke.
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Commander of the Russian Airforce told to the press today that control system failure was the cause. Preflight procedures and checks were properly performed, but the failure was technically impossible to discover until the aircraft was airborne. The crew is to be rewarded.
I just wonder what could fail in such a way that it was impossible to check it on the ground? Preflight SOP implies a rather profound controls check including trims, autopilot and manual steering checks.
I just wonder what could fail in such a way that it was impossible to check it on the ground? Preflight SOP implies a rather profound controls check including trims, autopilot and manual steering checks.
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I just wonder what could fail in such a way that it was impossible to check it on the ground? Preflight SOP implies a rather profound controls check including trims, autopilot and manual steering checks.
P
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http://travel.iafrica.com/flights/725663.html
Russia probes dancing jet
Thu, 05 May 2011 2:10
Russian military prosecutors launched an investigation on Wednesday after an amateur video captured a defence ministry jet lurching terrifyingly out of control in skies close to Moscow.
Videos of the Tupolev jet posted on YouTube by witnesses show the plane twisting from side to side uncontrollably before pilots manage to land it safely at a military aerodrome outside Moscow.
"The military prosecutors have launched a probe which should establish the reasons for the mid-air incident that almost led to an aviation disaster," a spokesman for the chief military prosecutor's office told the RIA Novosti news agency on Wednesday.
The Tu-154 plane, dating back to the 1960s, was dubbed the "dancing plane" by bloggers.
The spokesman for the chief military prosecutor's office told RIA Novosti that the plane's steering system had malfunctioned and praised the pilots for managing to land safely in a built-up area.
"During a test flight, the steering system broke down on the TU-154B-2 plane belonging to the Defence Ministry's 800th air base," the spokesman said.
"Thanks to the great professionalism and supreme skill of the pilots, the crew managed to land on the second attempt at Chkalovsk aerodrome, avoiding casualties among the airforce and the local population."
Disaster in the sky
The ageing Tupolev 154 planes, first flown in 1968 and used by Aeroflot until 2009, have been involved in a number of air accidents in recent years.
The aircraft's last major fatal crash was on April last year, when a Tu-154 carrying Polish president Lech Kaczynski and other top officials came down in fog near the Russian city of Smolensk.
In September a Tu-154 plane made a miraculous emergency landing on a derelict airstrip in the remote Komi region after its electrical systems failed midflight.
This year, the spectacular display of Russian military aviation that usually accompanies the Victory Day parade on Red Square on May 9 has been cancelled, according to media reports, in an apparent cost-cutting measure.
Thu, 05 May 2011 2:10
Russian military prosecutors launched an investigation on Wednesday after an amateur video captured a defence ministry jet lurching terrifyingly out of control in skies close to Moscow.
Videos of the Tupolev jet posted on YouTube by witnesses show the plane twisting from side to side uncontrollably before pilots manage to land it safely at a military aerodrome outside Moscow.
"The military prosecutors have launched a probe which should establish the reasons for the mid-air incident that almost led to an aviation disaster," a spokesman for the chief military prosecutor's office told the RIA Novosti news agency on Wednesday.
The Tu-154 plane, dating back to the 1960s, was dubbed the "dancing plane" by bloggers.
The spokesman for the chief military prosecutor's office told RIA Novosti that the plane's steering system had malfunctioned and praised the pilots for managing to land safely in a built-up area.
"During a test flight, the steering system broke down on the TU-154B-2 plane belonging to the Defence Ministry's 800th air base," the spokesman said.
"Thanks to the great professionalism and supreme skill of the pilots, the crew managed to land on the second attempt at Chkalovsk aerodrome, avoiding casualties among the airforce and the local population."
Disaster in the sky
The ageing Tupolev 154 planes, first flown in 1968 and used by Aeroflot until 2009, have been involved in a number of air accidents in recent years.
The aircraft's last major fatal crash was on April last year, when a Tu-154 carrying Polish president Lech Kaczynski and other top officials came down in fog near the Russian city of Smolensk.
In September a Tu-154 plane made a miraculous emergency landing on a derelict airstrip in the remote Komi region after its electrical systems failed midflight.
This year, the spectacular display of Russian military aviation that usually accompanies the Victory Day parade on Red Square on May 9 has been cancelled, according to media reports, in an apparent cost-cutting measure.
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Komandir's name - Jury Rodionov, age 38 or 39. Nothing else is known of the crew. Journalists search for him but the avia-base replies "Rodionov took a holiday" :o) The plane is in the same air-base in Chkalovsk, various commissions are visiting it.
TU-s mechanics across Russia are said to be crawling over full TU insides checking their planes. In alarm.Only they don't know what to look for.
There are some theories that there are 2 wires in TU154 planes marked same colour, and they could have been mixed up. As the plane spent 10 yrs outdoor under snow rain what not, various parts were extracted out of it for other, acting planes, and that the same parts were installed in it again, borrowed from other planes. That's whenn the two wires could have been mixed up. Or that the contacts went off, during the take-off.
The plane went at 400km/hr speed during this "dancing" time.
In the Russian aviation blog someone, acquainted with the crew, said that the crew's impressions during the flight were that the every taking of the "wheel" resulted in the opposite direction. So they gave up on the wheel and flew the plane without.
TU-s mechanics across Russia are said to be crawling over full TU insides checking their planes. In alarm.Only they don't know what to look for.
There are some theories that there are 2 wires in TU154 planes marked same colour, and they could have been mixed up. As the plane spent 10 yrs outdoor under snow rain what not, various parts were extracted out of it for other, acting planes, and that the same parts were installed in it again, borrowed from other planes. That's whenn the two wires could have been mixed up. Or that the contacts went off, during the take-off.
The plane went at 400km/hr speed during this "dancing" time.
In the Russian aviation blog someone, acquainted with the crew, said that the crew's impressions during the flight were that the every taking of the "wheel" resulted in the opposite direction. So they gave up on the wheel and flew the plane without.
the crew's impressions during the flight were that the every taking of the "wheel" resulted in the opposite direction.
Do not try this in an Airbus!
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A few years ago, there was an incident with a cross-wired sidestick in an A320: http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/...s/2_2004_1.pdf
In that case however, the FO was able to fly the plane normally from his side.
In that case however, the FO was able to fly the plane normally from his side.
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There are some theories that there are 2 wires in TU154 planes marked same colour, and they could have been mixed up. As the plane spent 10 yrs outdoor under snow rain what not, various parts were extracted out of it for other, acting planes, and that the same parts were installed in it again, borrowed from other planes. That's whenn the two wires could have been mixed up.
Very dangerous & wasteful of manpower, but probably necessitated by an austere financial environment. The aircraft was just a wheeled parts bin. Parts available for the taking, no formal control. Then came more operational necessity and they needed a complete aircraft-with interesting results!
Last edited by Machinbird; 8th May 2011 at 15:19. Reason: Add last two sentences.