May I respectfully disagree 100% Yes - that does confirm the de-icing is complete... it does not mean there are no vehicles stuck / working behind you in a universal worldwide fashion.
Hence my comment above... to make it more bullet proof, you as crew, insist 100% that you receive a postive radio call/response to "all vehicles and personnel clear". Hate to use CYA, but at least in this case it is also on the CVR
There's clearly a disconnect between the flight deck and the ground crew. I'm thinking that getting representatives from both groups together is critical, as stated above,and that there should become an international standard.
But I think the first thing that needs to be expressed to the ground crew is that the flight deck can't see below them, to the left, to the right, or behind.... the flight deck can't see if anyone is in/around the aircraft.
Interestingly, this is not a problem backing out of the gate because someone is driving the push-back cart and they can see all around the aircraft.
So we're going to see this problem occur during de-icing more than anywhere else, when the de-icing is not happening at the gate - and maybe that's why some airports went to gate de-icing in the first place - if the de-icing is taking place at the same location in the taxi then there could be a "supervisor" in a jeep who drives in front of the plane and moves only when it's all clear.
At any rate, there needs to be a standard in place the prevents this type of thing from happening again. It gives a really bad impression to the public when a plane runs into the ground crew at 2 miles an hour.
Moi/, there should be no need as there is already someone in such a position. The set up at AMS for remote de-icing is that the pad supervisor is in contact with the rigs, de-icing control and the aircraft. He is also mobile (small Mercedes 4x4) and from that position, should be able to determine that all de-icing trucks are clear. On completion of de-icing, you are told the start of your holdover time, the fluid/s used and the last phrase normally uttered is "...and all de-icing vehicles are now clear. Please re-contact Ground for taxi."
What is unclear is what knocked the truck over. Was it the tail or was it jet blast? Either way, the de-icing truck was vulnerable as soon as it had completed it task.
I think the simplest answer is that in de-icing areas you have a stopbar operated by the de-icers.
And I know that people will say that lighting should only be controlled by ATC, but I know at Tulla behind the Menzies cargo shed, we could control airfield lighting.
In CDG, one of the de-icing trucks in front of the A/C keeps its crane right in front of the cockpit windows (2 meters or so). I mean right in front of your nose ! It is impossible to start taxiing before de-icing supervisor declares the area clear of personnel/vehicles. Then only the crane is removed from view... This makes de-icing ops a little slower than e.g. in scandinavian countries but is definitely safer. FFT.
bid deal, someone almost got killed. who knows he couldve gotten stuck in the flaps and got a free ride to st.maarten.
in any ways, it's a sad incident,.. in now way able to blame the cockpit crew in such stupid ways as i read above..., cause in those pilots minds, they are not moving until receiving a all clear from those guys out there. if they didnt get it and they moved, it was an honest mistake by the crew. if they got the all clear and they moved and hit the guy, it was an honest mistake the ground personnel. either way its a mistake that happened. let the investigation clear it out and dont hate the klm game, cause it's a solid game! now suck it
I was told by a trusted ( trustable ) source the crew finished de-icing, and went beyond the safety line(s) so the AC could depart. As it did, unfortunately turning right too quickly or too sharply hitting the truck with the rear stabilo.
I found below references made / distributed by ATCBox member Curly
Lots of talk about cones, trucks, people etc. being placed in front of the aircraft whilst de icing takes place. Would it not be simpler to place chocks under the nosewheel which are only removed by the supervisor once all vehicles are clear? That way, even if the crew start to move too soon, they won't be going too far!
How about doing away with trucks altogether, and have a fixed gantry under which every aircraft passed as part of the taxy. Since there's a mandated maximum width of aircraft, then having a gantry wider than this with downward facing sprinklers below it would enable aircraft to be fully de-iced both wings at a time without fear of missing a wing or missing a section. Traffic lights on the gantry would allow control. Would eventually be cheaper than vehicles as well, and would be yet another aide-memoire for those trying to take off from the taxyway too.
Some 20 years ago, unsure where the de-ice truck was, the skipper asked me to go out in the cabin to visually check (looking out of the windows) if I could see it.
The brain is an amazing thing, with almost unlimited powers.......if used
Lots of talk about cones, trucks, people etc. being placed in front of the aircraft whilst de icing takes place. Would it not be simpler to place chocks under the nosewheel which are only removed by the supervisor once all vehicles are clear? That way, even if the crew start to move too soon, they won't be going too far!
Not a bad idea, but I can't just hear it now
"Keptin, I'm givvin her all she's got, but she just won't move!"
Because you infra red system has absolutey no anti icing properties. Once the aircraft is towed out of your bay, it will ice up again almost immediately..
How about an extra person out up front of the aircraft, who is a safety man & also an aircraft marshaller.
At AMS last Saturday, where we we had to sit on the ground for three hours in a snowstorm, that was exactly the procedure once de-icing started. I even have a picture but don't know how to post it....
Standing at that platform I recall it being really difficult, with all the bright beams out to facilitate the de-icing crew in their job of getting the ice/snow off, to distinguish the taxiway lay-out in front of the cockpit with the sea of green and blue lights/refelctors.
You actually have to taxi quite a distance straight ahead before you're even close to any taxi way, however an airport perimeter road you have to cross to get there actually looks like a taxiway as well. And, believe me or not, to make a turn into that perimeter road you have to turn as you're leaving the platform. Hitting everything with your tail.
Now, I don't think the crew left for the airport to go around injuring ground crew that day. And most probably it was the crews first actual de-icing is a decade or so. And that West platform is also of quite recent origin so they've probably never been there in the first place.
No complacency but Murphy. Could've happened to anyone.
I do accept the fact it's rather interesting to see another dent in KLM's sometimes a bit arrogant attitude of their reputation. It's keeping them sharp. H*ll, it's keeping everybody sharp.
I hope for a speedy recovery of that poor chap. Smooth landings, NK
The various Glycol solutions are designed to "stick" to the aircraft after de-icing, hence why you have a holdover time, if you just remove the ice then you are asking it to be re-iced, with no protection.
Would you really want to take an aircraft for a 15 minute taxi which is perfectly clean of ice but has no ice protection in conditions along the lines of M01/M00 +SN or M06/M06 FZDZ
I also would like to know the effect this will have on fuel, electronics etc, chemical de-icing is fluid adiabatic process. Heating the aircraft on the other hand will increase pressure, according to Charles's Law. I'm not sure I would fancy that on an aircraft with full fuel tanks....
Yes - that does confirm the de-icing is complete... it does not mean there are no vehicles stuck / working behind you in a universal worldwide fashion.
Takes nothing like full power ...
