A democracy? Yup, in todays politics democracy seems to be where you ask everyone their opinion and then make your own decision anyway. That's not democratic government. It is, however captaincy.
As FO yes thanks, it's nice to be asked, however I do not expect, nor want actually, the responsability of making the decision.
At the moment probably 80% of the time I get it right (I'm not new any more, it used to be 80% wrong!). When that's nearer 100% (nobody's perfect!) I'd like to be captain. Until then feel free to agree with my suggestion at will, but overule at necessity, and then show me how it's done.
Prevent me from suggesting and rule me out of the loop, allow me to command and rule yourself out of the loop.
T'was F/O's handling sector. In the cruise IMC. Then we lost all airframe anti-ice. As it was his sector I asked him what he would like to do?
Response: "What the hell are you asking me for? You are the Captain!"
Nice!
I think I would have asked the same thing Kelly. I expect the F/O to manage the aircraft as if they are in charge, right until I take over.
On another note, when an F/O, I have on occasion said "If you feel uncomfortable, go ahead and take over, because if this goes sideways, I'm going to leave you holding the blame."
One important thing an F/O does need to be able to do is quickly and completely switch to PNF mode after hearing "I have control".
Years ago when I was an F/O there were two instances when it was my sector and things got a little difficult due to adverse weather and I looked over to the LH seat for supreme guidance and all I got was a blank look in one case and "It's all yours ace, I couldn't do it any better!" in the other.
The first case was an approach at night to YPPH (Perth) in a typical nor-westerly howler with driving rain and the X-wind over my limit and a go around from in the flare due a passing downpour the second was a landing at the VTBD (Bangkok), in squally conditions, when the B747 decided to aquaplane after landing and proceed down the runway a little sideways. It was several years before the QF1 incident.
Neither Captain showed any interest in taking over and left me to sort it out. The last thing on my mind was to say something like, "You're the Captain you sort it out."
Regards,
BH.
Last edited by Bullethead : 31st May 2009 at 10:48.
Been reading all these excellent posts with great interest. It just goes to show, I guess, how complicated it can be. CRM is terrific; but it in the end is put into play by humans..and that means unavoidable flaws. It's how we react and adapt to these flaws that makes it all work in the end. As an F/O getting close to having my first command I have been watching with great interest how my Captains manage our flights. I have seen lately two opposing styles; and I have been conscious of my actions in each situation: One Captain is very much in command. He will micromange everything to the point where basically all input is a one-way street. I get along with him great on a personal level, though. He was hired as a direct entry Captain. Another one I have flown a fair bit lately is an excellent study. He is in his late 20's, and this is his first command. He uses his F/O's as a resource. He will brief an approach, or an arrival, and will more often than not turn to me and ask if I have anything to add. If I do, he listens and takes it all in and then makes his decision. I appreciate how he interacts with me in managing the flight, and I appreciate that he is very confident in making his decision.
These are very simple examples, but one of the hardest things to do as an F/O is to not "mold" yourself to the particular captain you happen to be flying with that trip. I don't adjust my personality to the guy next to me...I am always just myself and by being consistent, I have (I think) the trust of my commanders; they know what they are going to get. It is not always so easy; but my job is to help make the flight a safe one. It takes two, and I hope that when my turn for a Command position comes around I will be able to draw on all my experiences in a positive way.
Not really sure where I was going with that.... just got me thinking when I read the original post. I know people like that, and I have flown with people like that. And trying to manage such aggressive personalities is really difficult: I guess we all have to establish our boundaries, and be consistent in our actions. It is always difficult to cross the line between "having a nice fireside chat" and actually going to the company or operations or crewing or CP etc. But it sometimes has to be done and we do it hoping something positive will come about.
Talking about Stroppy First Officers, what about Stroppy Second Officers?
I was an F/O on the B747-400 and had about 6,000 hours on that machine alone and I flew this very nice approach into LHR years ago and the Second Officer attempted to debrief me on the preceedings. I nearly fell out of the seat as did the Captain.
When I recovered I pointed out that if any debriefing was to be done it would be by the Captain and not by the S/O.
Great snapping sea serpents, my ATPL was at least five years older than this twerp.
I haven't see him since so I don't know what he's like these days.
Dunno, if he did I wasn't going to let him utter it. I guess that made me a 'stroppy First Officer', at least in relation to this 'stroppy Second Officer'
The particular Captain made no comment about my flying but agreed with me telling the Second Officer to pull his head in.
What BH wrote about his SO was "SO AWSOME"... I am amazed how you didn't tell him off rite away. Anyways, just a few weeks ago, I was operating as safety FO, the occupant of the RH seat was a DEFO doing his first sector of line training, while the CN had been an Instructor for about 8 months.
The Trainee FO was PF, and asked the CN to do the B4 start, after the subsequent Cxlist completion by CN, this trainee said: "It wasn't done that way in my previous outfit, and their Cxlist works better than it is here, you know, paying attention to this small little sh*t (yes he said Sh*t on his first line training sector) what made my previous outfit considered me to become commander"
....... we pushed back like 7 minutes late, coz the CN decided that I should replace him in the RH, and that sector became another observation flight for this poor guy.....
Talking about Stroppy First Officers, what about Stroppy Second Officers?
I was an F/O on the B747-400 and had about 6,000 hours on that machine alone and I flew this very nice approach into LHR years ago and the Second Officer attempted to debrief me on the preceedings. I nearly fell out of the seat as did the Captain.
When I recovered I pointed out that if any debriefing was to be done it would be by the Captain and not by the S/O.
Great snapping sea serpents, my ATPL was at least five years older than this twerp.
Amazing that we still have pilots who think that their ego is more important than their profession.
I don't care where the input is coming from. If it is valid, it is important to me to listen.
I don't care where the input is coming from. If it is valid,
That's exactly my point, with this guys level of experience on the aeroplane, and in total, and the fact that, in this particular airline, Second Officers are not licenced to make, or assessed on, take offs and landings, I didn't consider anything he was likely to come up with to be valid. The Captain backed me up.
I have a cordial relationship with my F/O's. Those that dont play ball and are out of line.........well put it like this, they know who's daddy when the day's done. This rarely rarely happens and I find my f/o's top notch, willing to learn and those coming up for command like hoovers dragging info from you. In all facets of the airline game you'll get the odd one that will pull against you, is rude to ccm's and demanding, walks through doors ahead of you and doesnt hold door....basically disrespectful.....not on my watch.
Going back to the original post, there is no question this FO's attitude is lacking. By putting up with it you just encourage this bully.
Most of the time a word to the wise is sufficient. This guy knows exacty what he is doing.
Reading the riot act is not necessary. You should always be polite and respectful, as though you had an audience, and not say anything you could regret later. A quiet word before the flight and avoid any conflict on the flight deck is preferable.
These guys know the game. They know you are the one ultimately responsible for the flight. No you don't have to be buddies, but there should be an "open, friendly and relaxed" atmosphere on the flight deck.
I don't think a stroppy FO (or stroppy captain for that matter) should be so easily wiped off as a "personality conflict" as it lets the individual off too lightly.
You need to politely illuminate the error of this guy's ways, or you are being neglectful of your own duties.
CRM includes keeping the lines of communication open, but always with respect.
If the going got tough, can you rely on this guy to back you up to the best of his abilities? If he can't see sense, offload him and find one of the majority FOs who are professional.
Hypothetical situation:
Low houred FO on a medium jet with about 500 hours on type flies with Captain of about 4000 hours. The FO is from an integrated fATPL background and is in his first job. The Captain from a single engine, done-it-the-hard-way background and has only ever flown for this one particular low-cost carrier (I'm not saying either is better!).
The Captain's attitude is that he knows better than the people who write company SOPs and regularly disregards them when PF. The FO has a good knowledge of company SOPs and adheres to them unless there is a very good reason not to. Not only does the Captain disregard SOPs but he expects the FO to do the same and brings up point of debate constantly while the FO is PF during the "sterile cockpit" phases of flight and the cruise. Eg - "why did you wait to set standard til then?", "why are you entering descent wind forecasts in the FMC?", "why are you getting out of your seat to open the FD door? use the switch" etc etc. The answer to his questions are invariably "that's the SOP".
The Captain also has an abrasive personality and likes to do things his own way. He likes to argue the point that he is right, but never concedes that the SOP way might be the correct way. He constantly crosses lines of responsibility (Eg by making AFDS inputs when he is PNF) and has almost no interest in the FO's contribution to the operation. When the FO tries to debate any kind of SOP point in the cruise or on the ground, the Captain's response is bordering on aggressive. The Captain is also constantly rushing to make up time, even when there is no delay. The FO feels constantly pushed and flustered and has never flown with anyone else of such a character. He also feels like his initiative is stifled and despite trying to remain professional and rise above it, after some hours of this he does not feel over inclined to help the Captain out. This is the 2nd time they have flown together and the first day was no different.
My question is this - what would you do if you were the FO in question? Attempts to discuss the points have failed. Would you speak to management? Or just ask rostering not to roster you to fly with him again?
Ok so its not really hypothetical, but nevertheless, I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts....
Last edited by D O Guerrero : 24th June 2009 at 16:07.
This guy is going to be a hazzard soon, looks like he thinks he knows everything and does not repect the captains opinion or knowledge. He needs to be put into his place before he causes an accident. People need to work together on the flight deck, if they dont things go wrong.
I am the orchestra(FO), and you are the conductor(Captain)
Everday we play out exactly the same song. Its called the "SOP"
Some like to conduct the song this way, some another. I don,t mind, as long as he sticks to the music who cares. If he wants it rock and roll, cool. I don,t care because we are all different and it makes him happy. As long as it is the same song!
One thing us orchestras should always remember. If things go bad, ultimately they always end up blaming the conductor.
If you have a good working relationship with your rostering department then yes, you can ask them not to roster you with this (very bad and unprofessional) captain, such requests often find their way back to management anyway, certainly if they get more than one request.
Once this chap realises he has been 'fingered' ,from what you say of his attitude, you can expect him to get even more aggressive and defend himself by going for you, declaring you to be incompetent etc. hence his continual badgering of you, so, at this stage, going to management may not be the way ahead but eventually you may have to if rostering can't help.
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