‘Data Driven’ or good judgement.
gums, you identify a root issue of expertise. The need of knowledge, both ‘know what’ and ‘know how’, and the skill to call upon these knowledge types, identifying the situations when they should be used, the ‘how to’ of operating; professionalism.
The availability of instant ‘data’ from search engines, accessible flight records, and computer analysis / visualisation, minimise the need to generate knowledge - the ‘what’. This also applies to know how, no need to crank the numbers, reducing opportunity to practice critical thinking and thus improve experience of interpretation and judgement.
Being data driven is another facet of technology dependency, automation dependency. We use ‘it’ because it’s there, because it’s easy, but rarely question why we use it, a lost skill.
The availability of instant ‘data’ from search engines, accessible flight records, and computer analysis / visualisation, minimise the need to generate knowledge - the ‘what’. This also applies to know how, no need to crank the numbers, reducing opportunity to practice critical thinking and thus improve experience of interpretation and judgement.
Being data driven is another facet of technology dependency, automation dependency. We use ‘it’ because it’s there, because it’s easy, but rarely question why we use it, a lost skill.
And from information and experience comes judgement
It sort of begs the question, if we're not going to use facts and data to make safety decisions, what would take it's place?
Judgement - in the absence of facts and data - is simply opinion with a nice name.
Judgement - in the absence of facts and data - is simply opinion with a nice name.
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That said try not to confuse plain English meaning with the latest buzzwords
From the original post:
‘The FAA maintained … that the specifics (data) were to unclear to merit decisive action’. Thence becoming the last authority to ground the Max.
“We (FAA) have said all along that we are a data-driven organisation.”
“We (FAA) have said all along that we are a data-driven organisation.”
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An informative read on the abuses of data:
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An informative read on the abuses of data: The Tyranny of Metrics by Jerry Muller
It should be required reading for any manager on the verge of making the Vietnam body count mistake all over again." ---Tim Harford, Financial Times
Thread Starter
From data comes information.
From information comes knowledge.
And from information and experience comes judgement.
These depict a flow chart, but lack the action of a process.
Information, knowledge, and judgement do not just appear - data does not become information without thought, which in turn depends on the ability and willingness to actively engage with data, to form an understanding necessary for judgement - making sense of data - thinking about how we use the data and not delegating to a data handling machine.
Related ref:
Critical Thinking https://www.dropbox.com/s/c5otpsl20a...nking.pdf?dl=0 (use web view as required)
From information comes knowledge.
And from information and experience comes judgement.
These depict a flow chart, but lack the action of a process.
Information, knowledge, and judgement do not just appear - data does not become information without thought, which in turn depends on the ability and willingness to actively engage with data, to form an understanding necessary for judgement - making sense of data - thinking about how we use the data and not delegating to a data handling machine.
Related ref:
Critical Thinking https://www.dropbox.com/s/c5otpsl20a...nking.pdf?dl=0 (use web view as required)
I was told that because "the data" indicated that this was a very rare event on the 737 and thus not a good use of sim time.
Let's face it -all simulator training is by definition "evidenced based." All student pilots start off learning to fly with an instructor from a syllabus of training. Takeoff and landing competency is achieved by trial and error. When a student is deemed by his instructor to be safe for first solo, that judgement is based on real time evidence. In other words the student has completed the syllabus of training so far, without crashing. Surely that is evidence based training? Evidence based training is just another name or buzz-word for normal training - or am I missing something hidden in the buzz-word?
Turbo jet engines have proved so reliable that it is rare for a pilot to experience a real engine failure on take off in his career. Nevertheless if the worst happens - an engine failure at lift off at max takeoff weight - we know it can require good flying skill to handle such a situation. Yet, with the chance of a real engine failure so rare, there is a school of thought that the number of practice engine failures in the simulator should be significantly reduced and the time saved spent on more likely scenarios. In fact, experience in simulator training has shown that more pilot error stuff ups occur during practice engine failures on takeoff, than straight forward system failures where physical hand flying by crews takes place.
On that evidence alone the number of practice engine failures during takeoff in simulator training should remain unchanged. And while we are on the subject could we please dispense with the term Evidence Based Training. State the bleeding obvious - it is Normal Training.
Salute!
Thank you, Centaurus, the use of the latest buzzwords for all kindsa programs, methods, prodedures and so forth is now a part of the "management" approach to things versus "the empirical approach that has its failures, get up and dust off, then don't make that mistake again" way of doing business.
I like the idea of illustrating problems in the sim due to recent incidents. Nevertheless, there is no substitute for knowledge and experience when something weird happens like my most serious emergency. I can guarantee that the last thing I wanted to do or could do was ask my FO to look up some procedure for a malfunction that was not in the book.
So related to my previous post, I liked the reference that Tom provided, tho' I ain't buying the book!!
Beginning to ramble now, but I wish for all to know that the "Yeager" types can save the day, but the greybeard that has had a few exciting events and knows the systems has prolly saved more lives.
Gums opines...
Thank you, Centaurus, the use of the latest buzzwords for all kindsa programs, methods, prodedures and so forth is now a part of the "management" approach to things versus "the empirical approach that has its failures, get up and dust off, then don't make that mistake again" way of doing business.
I like the idea of illustrating problems in the sim due to recent incidents. Nevertheless, there is no substitute for knowledge and experience when something weird happens like my most serious emergency. I can guarantee that the last thing I wanted to do or could do was ask my FO to look up some procedure for a malfunction that was not in the book.
So related to my previous post, I liked the reference that Tom provided, tho' I ain't buying the book!!
... metrics can be good when used as a complement to rather than a replacement for judgement based on personal experience
Gums opines...
Paxing All Over The World
Circuit training transferred to SIM as soon as it was viable to do so and they saved tons of money. Now they want to cut down on SIM time to save tons of money ...
This is what commerce does. This is why strong regulations are needed. This does NOT mean a hefty ultra 'left wing' regime - just sensible, honest, open regulation aimed at making the crew and pax safe. Too many countries have not found the right balance.
This is what commerce does. This is why strong regulations are needed. This does NOT mean a hefty ultra 'left wing' regime - just sensible, honest, open regulation aimed at making the crew and pax safe. Too many countries have not found the right balance.
safetypee,
Agreed - 100%
Agreed - 100%
Centaurus, # 29, interesting.
Another view of EBT focuses on the training process itself, identifying evidence of the effectiveness of what has been trained and not using accident statistics
We hope that there are no more accidents / events, thus there may be little or no data to crosscheck the training outcome; - ‘absence of evidence is not evidence of absence of continuing risk’.
Being data-driven is often based on scant data seeking to prove the effectiveness of interventions.
Thus we should use a data aiding system with human involvement, vice reliance on machine alone.
Another view of EBT focuses on the training process itself, identifying evidence of the effectiveness of what has been trained and not using accident statistics
We hope that there are no more accidents / events, thus there may be little or no data to crosscheck the training outcome; - ‘absence of evidence is not evidence of absence of continuing risk’.
Being data-driven is often based on scant data seeking to prove the effectiveness of interventions.
Thus we should use a data aiding system with human involvement, vice reliance on machine alone.
but I wish for all to know that the "Yeager" types can save the day
Data - what do you say to a company who doesn't comply with regs etc or believe in training but has an 27 year accident free record, mainly due to the quality of the pilots and a lot of luck (pilots messed up but recovered), major mechanical events always happening in benign circumstances.
Salute!
Not sure where you are coming from, megan.
My comment was to point out some very serious incidents that concluded with minimum loss of life due to very good crews or pilots. I call them "yeager types", but could call them Crossfield, White, Armstrong, LeVier, et al.
The safety folks do not count on very talented pilots to save the day. So the use of statistical data plays a role in final determination of risk and such.
Bottomline is you cannot implement a system that requires an experienced golden arm test pilot to save the day.
Gums sends......
Not sure where you are coming from, megan.
My comment was to point out some very serious incidents that concluded with minimum loss of life due to very good crews or pilots. I call them "yeager types", but could call them Crossfield, White, Armstrong, LeVier, et al.
The safety folks do not count on very talented pilots to save the day. So the use of statistical data plays a role in final determination of risk and such.
Bottomline is you cannot implement a system that requires an experienced golden arm test pilot to save the day.
Gums sends......
Thread Starter
This thread suggests that there is a range of views, without consistent definition of ‘data- driven’, although the trend is towards using more data.
A web search for a definition and alternative views was also inconsistent; ‘compelled by data’ - or - ‘weighing’ data.
… data-driven means that progress in an activity is compelled b data, rather than by intuition or by personal experience. - Wiki
… a “data-driven” approach, makes strategic decisions based on data analysis and interpretation. - atinternet
Data driven … a process or activity that is spurred on by data, as opposed to being driven by mere intuition or personal experience. In other words, the decision is made with hard empirical evidence and not speculation or gut feel. - techopedia
Data driven decisions are made by weighing data. This suffers from the problem that in order to make an optimal decision with data you must first select the optimal decision model. This can be shown to be paradox whereby there is no way to guarantee you are making the optimal decision because you always have to start with an assumption such as the assertion that a decision model or algorithm is correct. - simplicable
Data must be accessible and queryable. - oreilly
The last two quotes are interesting. If safety action is based on a ‘decision model’ (required data) then how are decisions to be checked; only in hindsight ?
Availability and type of data is critical; with appropriate data, it’s analysis can be used to guide decisions.
Without, there may only be intuition.
For the 737 Max accidents, the approaches taken by the regulators span the differing views.
Reactive - we lack data, no decision.
Proactive - seek additional data and use it in the decision process.
The industry’s use of data appears to depend on our outlook - reactive / proactive, the availability of appropriate data, and the situation. But what is appropriate data, and it’s use, and in which situations ?
A web search for a definition and alternative views was also inconsistent; ‘compelled by data’ - or - ‘weighing’ data.
… data-driven means that progress in an activity is compelled b data, rather than by intuition or by personal experience. - Wiki
… a “data-driven” approach, makes strategic decisions based on data analysis and interpretation. - atinternet
Data driven … a process or activity that is spurred on by data, as opposed to being driven by mere intuition or personal experience. In other words, the decision is made with hard empirical evidence and not speculation or gut feel. - techopedia
Data driven decisions are made by weighing data. This suffers from the problem that in order to make an optimal decision with data you must first select the optimal decision model. This can be shown to be paradox whereby there is no way to guarantee you are making the optimal decision because you always have to start with an assumption such as the assertion that a decision model or algorithm is correct. - simplicable
Data must be accessible and queryable. - oreilly
The last two quotes are interesting. If safety action is based on a ‘decision model’ (required data) then how are decisions to be checked; only in hindsight ?
Availability and type of data is critical; with appropriate data, it’s analysis can be used to guide decisions.
Without, there may only be intuition.
For the 737 Max accidents, the approaches taken by the regulators span the differing views.
Reactive - we lack data, no decision.
Proactive - seek additional data and use it in the decision process.
The industry’s use of data appears to depend on our outlook - reactive / proactive, the availability of appropriate data, and the situation. But what is appropriate data, and it’s use, and in which situations ?
