How much fuel?
Thread Starter
How much fuel?
Interesting report from Flight Global - SIA 777 getting airborne with 41t more fuel than expected.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...rnback-449734/
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...rnback-449734/
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Personally speaking , if the pilots did not realise something was amiss with longer ground run , rotation speeds , and initial optimum/ Max altitudes then one needs to question there overall experience
Singapore appears here quite often for topics related to safety .....
Singapore appears here quite often for topics related to safety .....
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How the hell can the actual uplift and calculated uplift discrepancy not tell them there was something wrong.
Who filled in the tech log and who who signed the tech log.
Who filled in the tech log and who who signed the tech log.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
It seems to me that the crew were not at fault here. The basic error would appear to be the fact that the ground staff did not dip ALL the tanks. Basic requirement I would have thought.
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Herod - I disagree with your interpretation. The wing tanks were assumed to be full so the sum of their contents was added to an incorrectly dipped centre tank. Measuring the wing tanks would not have changed the numbers. What I find interesting is that the blame fell in the shoulders of the techie and none on the manufacturer. After all, how difficult can it be to dip a tank? Maybe Boeing’s ‘Magastick’ checking procedures need reviewing as does their QA process for installing programable fuel sensors that enable spurious tank values to be displayed. And how many times has this happened before? I also find it interesting that the additonal 41 tonnes went unnoticed in performance terms but as I only fly bug smashers I’ll let someone more qualified comment.
PM
PM
FFS, an uplift way exceeding the planned fuel load needs investigating. Simple. The only thing I would accept is a full magnastick check of all tanks as well as a reasonable explanation of how come the uplift was so much higher than calculated. In my mob we went through fuel measuring problems in the B747SP era when the fuel tended to stratify. We did, however, delay for long enough to resolve each discrepancy.
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Back to basics!!! What fuel load did it arrive with on board and how much did they put on. Now that can't be hard, or can it?
There was an Air France A319 that ran one tank dry despite it showing over 1000 kg remaining. Google it!
Funny little things those indication systems.
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Whenever a fuel measuring stick check is required to verify the fuel uplifted / fuel quantity inside the tank due to MEL applied, Fuel Measuring Stick Manual has to be used. It is quite time consuming to look up for correct fuel quantity value using this manual and human error might occurs.
To reduce the inconvenience caused, Boeing has released an iPad app, Boeing FMSM, to calculate fuel quantity using the fuel measuring sticks. The Boeing FMSM app is an electronic version of the referenced FMSM available in MyBoeingFleet. The Boeing FMSM app performs all the calculations and table lookups. The app can perform two different functions:
Identify the fuel sticks to be checked for a given fuel load
Calculate the fuel quantity for a given fuel stick reading
To reduce the inconvenience caused, Boeing has released an iPad app, Boeing FMSM, to calculate fuel quantity using the fuel measuring sticks. The Boeing FMSM app is an electronic version of the referenced FMSM available in MyBoeingFleet. The Boeing FMSM app performs all the calculations and table lookups. The app can perform two different functions:
Identify the fuel sticks to be checked for a given fuel load
Calculate the fuel quantity for a given fuel stick reading
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The technicians, it says, had "limited" experience in performing the check and that the magnastick readings were "likely not correct".
When I say they didnt get the concept it appears that the SQ guys didnt either - you do a stick check when you dont trust the onboad fuel system and want to know exactly what fuel is onboard so checking all the tanks is obviously needed.
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I am finding it quite peculiar that official report says nothing about aircraft all up weight, performance and envelope basically omitting the basic items for ICAO report standards.
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They did spot a discrepancy...
This prompted them to dip the centre fuel tanks and somehow managed to come to the same 86t figure the aircraft came to. Their logical but false conclusion must have been that the discrepancy lay with the fuel bowser and not the aircraft.
Although the aircraft's cockpit and refuelling-panel indicators showed total fuel of 86t, the refuelling had taken longer than expected, and the ground personnel found that the dispenser had apparently delivered 121.5t to the aircraft.
The ground team was uncertain about the discrepancy, initially believing that the fuel-flow counter might not have been reset before the fuel was dispensed.
The ground team was uncertain about the discrepancy, initially believing that the fuel-flow counter might not have been reset before the fuel was dispensed.
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Well, at my carrier ( one of the US Big 3) we don't even get a fuel slip any more, unless there is some MEL or non-standard procedural requirement for one. If the totalizer number agrees with the ECAM fuel page numbers, you're good to go with no fuel slip.
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Another Sloppy report!
So, Here we have armchair experts PAYED to investigate and they dont even come up with a proper ICAO standard report .
Namely the fact all the V1 V2 and Vr and Vref was WRONG with a factor close to 1.3 or 1.2.
On the 737 one ton equals ca 1 knot, so if I take off with speeds for a a 10 to lighter aircraft I would use Vspeeds that are ca 10kts to slow.
I would ask you 777 drivers to do a quick calculation for the two scenario we have here : 1 the calculated one and 2 the actual one.
Also C\G is wrong as the 777- 200ER Center Tank is more forward.
Boeing and the Airline got of hook this time as I can not think of how this could have gone the other way, Gimli Glider style.
Standing by to be corrected.
Cpt B
Namely the fact all the V1 V2 and Vr and Vref was WRONG with a factor close to 1.3 or 1.2.
On the 737 one ton equals ca 1 knot, so if I take off with speeds for a a 10 to lighter aircraft I would use Vspeeds that are ca 10kts to slow.
I would ask you 777 drivers to do a quick calculation for the two scenario we have here : 1 the calculated one and 2 the actual one.
Also C\G is wrong as the 777- 200ER Center Tank is more forward.
Boeing and the Airline got of hook this time as I can not think of how this could have gone the other way, Gimli Glider style.
Standing by to be corrected.
Cpt B
Wow, lots of trust in your fuelers, they must be highly trained.