Air Canada non go-around at SFO
Perhaps flashing them ON and OFF several times to get their attention and then turning them OFF for a prolonged time would work.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: EU
Posts: 644
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BTW, I can’t believe someone with Atc is so naive to assume a pilot would see a red light signal at an International airport. Must be a desk-jockey.
CYA. What else could they do?
CYA. What else could they do?
For the SLF reading there is a huge difference between they way they do things in the USA and how most of the rest of the world works.
In Europe they won't give a landing clearance until much later on, in fact until the runway is clear. We do have a "land after" call in the UK but generally they don't use it with commercial aircraft.
In Europe they won't give a landing clearance until much later on, in fact until the runway is clear. We do have a "land after" call in the UK but generally they don't use it with commercial aircraft.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: mids
Age: 58
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I stand corrected, thankfully I don't have to operate into CDG and their screwed up mixture of French and English.
But hey if a load of pilots don't know what the other aircraft are doing most of the time there is no issue with landing clearances being issued without the runway being safe.
But hey if a load of pilots don't know what the other aircraft are doing most of the time there is no issue with landing clearances being issued without the runway being safe.
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sounds like they had the wrong frequency dialed in for the tower but then switched to the correct ground control frequency after landing. Does anyone know whether the crew checked on with the tower?
A long shot yes, but in an inquiry, the tower would be safe in the knowledge they tried every available means at hand.
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: PA
Age: 59
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Does anyone know whether the crew checked on with the tower?
Probably the same crew as the last incident. This time, they were so happy to have actually found an actual runway, they missed the 8 calls to GA from tower.
Perhaps flashing them ON and OFF several times to get their attention and then turning them OFF for a prolonged time would work.
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Ottawa, ON
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How where they able to communicate to tower once they were on the ground so quickly? Did they realize they had a radio failure on roll-out and then decide to use the second radio?
The pilot monitoring could surely switch the radios even on short final in visual conditions.
I'm interested to see what comes from this.
The pilot monitoring could surely switch the radios even on short final in visual conditions.
I'm interested to see what comes from this.
Mmmmm PPruuune!
Join Date: Jul 1998
Location: UK
Posts: 596
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So.... eight calls to GA and still they landed safely with the previous vacated. Little premature on the GA instruction maybe? What was wrong with continue expect late landing clearance. I can normally tell whether a runway I'm about to land on is clear or not in VFR
Heard one the other day where tower instructed a GA due to a plastic bag blowing across the runway - really?
Heard one the other day where tower instructed a GA due to a plastic bag blowing across the runway - really?
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: PA
Age: 59
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So.... eight calls to GA and still they landed safely with the previous vacated. Little premature on the GA instruction maybe?
The aircraft had no idea why they were being told to GA.
What if it was FOD from the previous landing?
EDIT: I just listened to the ATC recording again. I think I figured it out, not once in the 8 times tower said GA, was there a "please".....
after all ATC only issues 'requests'....
FAA investigates another Air Canada landing mix-up at SFO
The official Air Canada twitter account initially sent a tweet to this reporter after a story about the incident first appeared online, appearing confused about what had happened.
AC twitter reads PPRUNE!
Last edited by underfire; 25th Oct 2017 at 16:36.
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
(b) is particularly pertinent to this case:
§ 91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.
(a) When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may deviate from that clearance unless an amended clearance is obtained, an emergency exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory. However, except in Class A airspace, a pilot may cancel an IFR flight plan if the operation is being conducted in VFR weather conditions. When a pilot is uncertain of an ATC clearance, that pilot shall immediately request clarification from ATC.
(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.
(c) Each pilot in command who, in an emergency, or in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory, deviates from an ATC clearance or instruction shall notify ATC of that deviation as soon as possible.
(d) Each pilot in command who (though not deviating from a rule of this subpart) is given priority by ATC in an emergency, shall submit a detailed report of that emergency within 48 hours to the manager of that ATC facility, if requested by ATC.
(e) Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person operating an aircraft may operate that aircraft according to any clearance or instruction that has been issued to the pilot of another aircraft for radar air traffic control purposes.
(a) When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may deviate from that clearance unless an amended clearance is obtained, an emergency exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory. However, except in Class A airspace, a pilot may cancel an IFR flight plan if the operation is being conducted in VFR weather conditions. When a pilot is uncertain of an ATC clearance, that pilot shall immediately request clarification from ATC.
(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.
(c) Each pilot in command who, in an emergency, or in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory, deviates from an ATC clearance or instruction shall notify ATC of that deviation as soon as possible.
(d) Each pilot in command who (though not deviating from a rule of this subpart) is given priority by ATC in an emergency, shall submit a detailed report of that emergency within 48 hours to the manager of that ATC facility, if requested by ATC.
(e) Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person operating an aircraft may operate that aircraft according to any clearance or instruction that has been issued to the pilot of another aircraft for radar air traffic control purposes.
When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may deviate from that clearance unless an amended clearance is obtained, an emergency exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory.
Looks good on paper, sure some expensive people in some office thought it all through
But,
they are no pilots, with real experience.
Try following the above quote somewhere over Africa...
Or even over europe or the usa, if i see a cb in front of me, and all the lcc`s and others asking for different levels, I don´t declare emergency, if the freq. is too busy...........
i will just turn! and tell/explain atc later what i am doing.
Too much abuse of RT nowadays....
TP
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: CANADA
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Obviously these 2 pilots were on the proper frequency to receive their landing clearance initially, then either a transceiver failed, the #1 transceiver was changed to a incorrect freq. or the #1 transceiver volume was turned off.
If a transceiver was changed to a improper frequency most pilots would realize they might be on the wrong frequency with either departure/approach type of instructions or radio silence on a busy Tower Frequency. Then again these guys had another working transceiver that was most likely on a company frequency.
Another example of poor awareness of another AC crew.
If a transceiver was changed to a improper frequency most pilots would realize they might be on the wrong frequency with either departure/approach type of instructions or radio silence on a busy Tower Frequency. Then again these guys had another working transceiver that was most likely on a company frequency.
Another example of poor awareness of another AC crew.
I'm bothered by hints in the discussion that there are so many escape paths without obvious correctable faults that could lead to such a landing accident.
If I imagine that the next similar combination will lead to an accident with loss of life, I ask myself what corrective actions would we seek?
would it be
"flashing red strobe lights or flares on the runway approach surface?
commanded ATC activation of lights or horn in the cockpit?
mandatory pilot fault with consequences ?
others?
If I imagine that the next similar combination will lead to an accident with loss of life, I ask myself what corrective actions would we seek?
would it be
"flashing red strobe lights or flares on the runway approach surface?
commanded ATC activation of lights or horn in the cockpit?
mandatory pilot fault with consequences ?
others?
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: mids
Age: 58
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may deviate from that clearance
If a clearance is given and then a reply of "unable " is given. Then its not been obtained.
ATC have zero clue if I have Anti skid in the mel or any of the other items which can make high speed taxing interesting.
To be honest on a roll out at 90 knts getting told to expedite my priority is the aviating not the communicating. I won't hit the brakes I won't reduce the power any further but I won't be increasing it until I am at 30 knts.
You can stick me in the sin bin if you like, fact is if I go off road and the accident investigation lot pull the FDR and declare I was taxing faster than the SOP's even if what happen is not my fault I will be hung drawn and quartered. Then I have a incident on my record and basically become unemployable if I wish to move company's.
Why should put my career at risk for a ATCO's screw up?