Unconfirmed report that Bombardier has sold the Q400 program
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VIking were trying to purchase the Dash 8 100 and start building them again as they see a demand for that size of aircraft but just having bought the CL415 line and got rid of all of their Sales Representatives around the world they will be hard pushed to sell them. It's no good building them if you don't have someone to sell them. Do they have the money to keep investing?
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Notably, their railway vehicle building industry, the other substantial part of their worldwide business, is known for the same thing ...
Ongoing product support is possibly more important to purchasers than initial first cost, it is something that both Boeing and Airbus, by the sheer size of their installed fleets, are able to handle readily worldwide. It would be one of the key things for the Airbus-Bombardier venture to benefit from. It is something that new entrants really find a challenge. Bombardier, with their established turboprops, regional jets, and business jets, really ought to have a handle on it.
Ongoing product support is possibly more important to purchasers than initial first cost, it is something that both Boeing and Airbus, by the sheer size of their installed fleets, are able to handle readily worldwide. It would be one of the key things for the Airbus-Bombardier venture to benefit from. It is something that new entrants really find a challenge. Bombardier, with their established turboprops, regional jets, and business jets, really ought to have a handle on it.
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VIking were trying to purchase the Dash 8 100 and start building them again as they see a demand for that size of aircraft but just having bought the CL415 line and got rid of all of their Sales Representatives around the world they will be hard pushed to sell them. It's no good building them if you don't have someone to sell them. Do that have the money to keep investing?
The Q400 simply cannot compete with the ATR on short field performance, and there are plenty of short fields around these parts, Cebu Air have been leaving Air Philippines so far behind that Air Philippines have now gone and got themselves some Q300's to take on the opposition with.
So there is something to be said for the older generations of modern day aircraft!
An interesting article comparing the Q400 with the ATR 72:
Proud to fly a Turboprop: Q400 vs ATR72 | The Flying Engineer
I am particularly impressed by the much lower break-even load factor of the ATR vs Bombardier.
Proud to fly a Turboprop: Q400 vs ATR72 | The Flying Engineer
I am particularly impressed by the much lower break-even load factor of the ATR vs Bombardier.
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V interesting article and clear attempt to stay unbiased
Conclusions seem very fair:-
The Q400 and the ATR72 are two aircraft in their own leagues, beyond a true comparison. The Q400 offers immense operational flexibility and unparalleled performance, while requiring only one aircraft type for most missions. The ATR 72 wins over the Q400 in the operating economics, from the start to the finish. The ATR 72 is less expensive to purchase, to operate, and goes out with a good resale value to cost sensitive operators due to a high demand for the type.
Conclusions seem very fair:-
The Q400 and the ATR72 are two aircraft in their own leagues, beyond a true comparison. The Q400 offers immense operational flexibility and unparalleled performance, while requiring only one aircraft type for most missions. The ATR 72 wins over the Q400 in the operating economics, from the start to the finish. The ATR 72 is less expensive to purchase, to operate, and goes out with a good resale value to cost sensitive operators due to a high demand for the type.
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The commercial wizard at our place has worked with both fleet types.
He said that the Q400 can mix and match with regional Jets. Ie for a 2 hour jet sector and something goes tech or loads are low you can switch it out with a Q and still not have to pay comp. ATR its not really an option.
1 hour to 2 hour sectors on the dash you can get an addition 2 sectors out of a crew and 4 out of the aircraft in a day.
He also said the Q kept route integrity which was explained to me that if you planned everything at 220knts indicated on the dash at FL240 or FL250 then if you got hit with headwinds. The dash you had the option of dropping down to FL200 and just taking the hit for fuel and blasting it (Vmo 260 knts indicated cruise at Vmo -10) . Meaning you only really started to struggle keeping things on time when the headwinds went over 50knts on the way home. The ATR was stuffed even with modest 25 headwinds. Not a problem on sub 1 hour sectors for it but when you got to 1:30 -> 2 hours it would cause huge rolling delays. An if the wx stayed the same for 3-4 days then crewing became an big issue.
He said that the Q400 can mix and match with regional Jets. Ie for a 2 hour jet sector and something goes tech or loads are low you can switch it out with a Q and still not have to pay comp. ATR its not really an option.
1 hour to 2 hour sectors on the dash you can get an addition 2 sectors out of a crew and 4 out of the aircraft in a day.
He also said the Q kept route integrity which was explained to me that if you planned everything at 220knts indicated on the dash at FL240 or FL250 then if you got hit with headwinds. The dash you had the option of dropping down to FL200 and just taking the hit for fuel and blasting it (Vmo 260 knts indicated cruise at Vmo -10) . Meaning you only really started to struggle keeping things on time when the headwinds went over 50knts on the way home. The ATR was stuffed even with modest 25 headwinds. Not a problem on sub 1 hour sectors for it but when you got to 1:30 -> 2 hours it would cause huge rolling delays. An if the wx stayed the same for 3-4 days then crewing became an big issue.
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"taking the hit for fuel" probably explains a lot....
a lot of ATR operators probably aren't as concerned about time keeping - when you're the only service in town you take what you get and don't moan
Like so much of aviation these days it's costs, costs, costs that drive the business
a lot of ATR operators probably aren't as concerned about time keeping - when you're the only service in town you take what you get and don't moan
Like so much of aviation these days it's costs, costs, costs that drive the business
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when you're the only service in town you take what you get and don't moan
He seemed to be sub 1 hour ATR anything over that Q400
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Not every country has delay comp........... and in others actually getting it paid is almost impossible
The initial lower cost plus the lower cost of operations just makes the ATR an obvious choice in most countries unless you are trying to compete with jet services
The initial lower cost plus the lower cost of operations just makes the ATR an obvious choice in most countries unless you are trying to compete with jet services
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true enough.
There is also something to do with front door loading of punters and it having a proper APU. Instead of a prop brake and hotel mode.
India has just taken a load of them though I believe.
But I am only a stick monkey, leave this airline biz stuff to those that know what they are talking about.
Must admit I would prefer to be in the back of Q400 than a ATR.
There is also something to do with front door loading of punters and it having a proper APU. Instead of a prop brake and hotel mode.
India has just taken a load of them though I believe.
But I am only a stick monkey, leave this airline biz stuff to those that know what they are talking about.
Must admit I would prefer to be in the back of Q400 than a ATR.
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The same unconfirmed source now says the Q400 has been sold to China:
Bombardier Q400 Division Sold to China - FliegerFaust
Bombardier Q400 Division Sold to China - FliegerFaust
