Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Jet2 flight shadowed by French jet

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Jet2 flight shadowed by French jet

Old 20th Aug 2017, 10:19
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Nearer home than before!
Posts: 524
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
This was a MLG to BHX flight so it would have been one of the brand new -800s. The -300s that will be left next year are all younger than the oldest -800s out there. It isn't aircraft age that was the problem. The French controllers I had that day had quite thick accents to be fair. my F/O struggled to get the frequencies right...
RVF750 is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2017, 11:06
  #22 (permalink)  
Gender Faculty Specialist
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Stop being so stupid, it's Sean's turn
Posts: 1,870
Received 4 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by Superpilot
About time they incorporated some sensible HF checks on the ground. Airmanship and all that.
What an awesome idea. It makes you wonder why nobody has thought of that already...
Chesty Morgan is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2017, 12:52
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Midlands
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
How do we know this was a loss of comms incident? Has this been confirmed?
Odins Raven is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2017, 12:57
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Peterborough
Age: 69
Posts: 258
Received 4 Likes on 3 Posts
hec7or.
Not Bloodhound missiles I'm afraid. They were done away with in the early 90's.
All we have left are Typhoons.
uffington sb is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2017, 13:03
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: 60 north
Age: 59
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I Norway we lost a Widerø Twin Otter in the late 70s or early 80s due to a Harrier.
The problem was it happened way east of the line Norway had drawn for NATO aircraft as a buffer before you hit the Soviet border.
Was all blamed on the Otter crew. Many years later it turned out the Harrier was using it as target and bumped into it.
Same as happened to Gargarin except the Harrier made contact and was damaged.

Intercept of airliners of any kind for training is not allowed to my knowledge anymore.
Why, ask the US Navy P3 that was intercepted and had to land in Hainan some time ago.

Anyway, it was a PLOC , it looks like?
BluSdUp is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2017, 13:52
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK.
Posts: 4,390
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by hec7or
The ATCO may pass on the request, but this is a function of the Sector Operation Centre and would be performed by an Intercept Controller who would not have access to VHF.

By the time you reached UK airspace, in all probability, you would have been tracked by air defence missile systems across europe albeit with the firing circuits disarmed, Nike, Hercules, Bloodhound, Hawk, Patriot etc and they wouldn't have bothered asking.
Yes, no doubt but, nevertheless, in the UK a request was made to embellish and, mindful of the welfare of my aircraft and passengers, I would refuse.
That decision was entirely at the civil aircraft commander's discretion.

My view was: If you want a target then get a Dominie up!

Last edited by Basil; 20th Aug 2017 at 14:06.
Basil is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2017, 15:22
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 30 Miles from the A1
Posts: 486
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Or maybe the J2 ac was on the right frequency and French ATC had forgot to tell them to change and then wonder why they have lost them. Happened before and will happen again, eg when French ATC moved from overnight manning to full daytime manning and one slipped through the net.
2Planks is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2017, 16:01
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: world
Posts: 3,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Doubt it. The next sector expecting the aircraft on their frequency would check with the previous to remind them. If no contact they would then try to contact the aircraft on 121.5
Hotel Tango is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2017, 16:12
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,780
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by BluSdUp
I Norway we lost a Widerø Twin Otter in the late 70s or early 80s due to a Harrier.
The problem was it happened way east of the line Norway had drawn for NATO aircraft as a buffer before you hit the Soviet border.
Was all blamed on the Otter crew. Many years later it turned out the Harrier was using it as target and bumped into it.
Well that is a fairly extravagant assertion. Three separate Norwegian investigations all concluded it was structural break-up - there was no blame attached to the crew.

The allegations that it was caused by a Harrier intercept also have no evidence.

Moreover, the Harrier pilots who would have been flying on that exercise will now all be happily collecting their pensions so have nothing to lose - do you really believe that they would not come forward and admit it if they had really accidentally killed some fellow aviators of a very friendly allied country like Norway?
Trim Stab is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2017, 16:18
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,780
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
Shot one , FAF jets have no TCAS, you meant Transponder surely.
as I can see this was not an interception but looks like a verification. maybe following a direct too close from , or overflying a sensitive area..or just an exercise/practice.
Air defense can do theses things , they normally do not give reasons.
Do not Forget France is still in a State of emergency following the terrorist attacks..
I don't understand though why they made themselves so visible to pax, and apparently not to pilots.

The one time I have been "verified" was over the Med by a Rafale. We only spotted him because we happened to turn on one of our rear-view cameras. We could not see him from normal line of sight from cockpit.
Trim Stab is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2017, 16:49
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 15,787
Received 196 Likes on 90 Posts
Originally Posted by Trim Stab
Well that is a fairly extravagant assertion. Three separate Norwegian investigations all concluded it was structural break-up - there was no blame attached to the crew.

The allegations that it was caused by a Harrier intercept also have no evidence.

Moreover, the Harrier pilots who would have been flying on that exercise will now all be happily collecting their pensions so have nothing to lose - do you really believe that they would not come forward and admit it if they had really accidentally killed some fellow aviators of a very friendly allied country like Norway?
Never let the truth get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.

PPRuNe: Possible RAF Harrier MidAir Collision Meham, Norway 1982
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2017, 16:53
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: EGLL
Posts: 559
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
....meanwhile a KC-135FR
wonders where his trade has got to ?
G-ARZG is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2017, 17:10
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: 60 north
Age: 59
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Stab trim

You are right.
I am wrong. There is no evidence that a Harrier had anything to do with this.

The first report from 1984 did indicate that it was the captain fault.

The second report stated it likely was mechanical failure in severe turbulence.

AND the Parliamentary Comission in 2006 stated no evidence of any Harrier involved.
My apologies to our fellow British soldiers.
BluSdUp is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2017, 18:26
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Hadlow
Age: 60
Posts: 597
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by BluSdUp
I Norway we lost a Widerø Twin Otter in the late 70s or early 80s due to a Harrier.
The problem was it happened way east of the line Norway had drawn for NATO aircraft as a buffer before you hit the Soviet border.
Was all blamed on the Otter crew. Many years later it turned out the Harrier was using it as target and bumped into it.
Same as happened to Gargarin except the Harrier made contact and was damaged.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wider%C3%B8e_Flight_933
Super VC-10 is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2017, 22:19
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
This thread is funny. A british airliner get intercepted by a french fighter jet, and it is the fault of either the french air force or the french ATC, but surely not the british crew...
fab777 is offline  
Old 21st Aug 2017, 00:52
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
@fab777 british crew at fault! how dare you.....how bloody dare you!
bluesideoops is offline  
Old 21st Aug 2017, 06:42
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,904
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Council Van, no need to feel molested. A few facts plus a suggestion on improving their operation does not equal an ego.
Superpilot is offline  
Old 21st Aug 2017, 08:43
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Superpilot don't take it personal. Unfortunately there are a few in Jet2 who suffer small airline syndrome and who struggle to deal with any kind of criticism aimed at jet2. For them the airline is the best thing since sliced bread, they are the product of the continuous North Korean style jet2 management propaganda.

I wholeheartedly agree with you; The T9-T16 procedures within Jet2 are amateurish to say the least.
Jet2_320 is offline  
Old 21st Aug 2017, 10:04
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: etha
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
2Planks:
Or maybe the J2 ac was on the right frequency and French ATC had forgot to tell them to change and then wonder why they have lost them.
HT:
Doubt it. The next sector expecting the aircraft on their frequency would check with the previous to remind them. If no contact they would then try to contact the aircraft on 121.5
2Planks has probably the closest guess out of all the responses here, it does happen, and enough to be considered regularly.
737 also said that Brest tried calling said aircraft for 20 minutes, further indication they were at least not on the expected frequency (if they were on a frequency), and RVF750 said that there were some accents hard to understand that their FO didn't quite understand. It is possible for the aircraft to have dialled in a wrong frequency, checked in as normal, and for the ATC unit to acknowledge without realising that the aircraft should not be on their frequency. Again, it is something that happens and has caused this situation in the past.
zonoma is offline  
Old 21st Aug 2017, 10:41
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: world
Posts: 3,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thank you zonoma. As ex ATC (for 45 years) I consider my doubts are just as valid. I note that you exclude the possibility of the aircraft taking the wrong call for a frequency change. That also happens quite frequently. As for your suggestion that
It is possible for the aircraft to have dialled in a wrong frequency, checked in as normal, and for the ATC unit to acknowledge without realising that the aircraft should not be on their frequency.
this would indicate that you have no knowledge of what functions an ATCO has to perform upon receiving an initial call on his sector. We are not talking procedural control over certain parts of Africa here!
Hotel Tango is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.