Pax sue Boeing in DBX crash
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If you want to start adding EICAS messages etc then why not go the whole hog and put the TOGA button under your right thumb on the yoke - you wouldn't ever have to let go of it and reach for the pesky throttles!
On my TomTom it is possible to activate voice commands to enter your destination. The first words uttered, usually at the start of a GA are "Go Around" (with or without the A). Go the whole hog and design voice activated manoeuvres.
Oh, and don't forget to monitor the automatics do what you just screamed for. Uh; isn't that what we're supposed to do all along? Damn & blast, Moriarty: That's another wiz-bang idea up the swannie. So, Batman, how to improve the monitoring of the automatics? And make the human more involved and ensure they 'follow through'. How shall we do that? Got it, by jove I've got it. Let's remove the automatics so there is no confusion. Save 000's of washers on all that fancy codswallop stuff as well. 'Heavens to murgatroid'. Bingo.
I wonder what would happen after "W.T F" was screamed in panic?
On my TomTom it is possible to activate voice commands to enter your destination. The first words uttered, usually at the start of a GA are "Go Around" (with or without the A). Go the whole hog and design voice activated manoeuvres.
Oh, and don't forget to monitor the automatics do what you just screamed for. Uh; isn't that what we're supposed to do all along? Damn & blast, Moriarty: That's another wiz-bang idea up the swannie. So, Batman, how to improve the monitoring of the automatics? And make the human more involved and ensure they 'follow through'. How shall we do that? Got it, by jove I've got it. Let's remove the automatics so there is no confusion. Save 000's of washers on all that fancy codswallop stuff as well. 'Heavens to murgatroid'. Bingo.I wonder what would happen after "W.T F" was screamed in panic?
Last edited by RAT 5; 30th Aug 2017 at 15:23.
Capt Bloggs,
Reading the Jetstar report, is it true then that to both select TOGA and have the FMS cycle to GA, the pilot HAS to select full TOGA power? There are no separate TOGA buttons, just the throttle being positioned in TOGA?
In any case, in the EK event, an AB pilot would have had to do exactly what the T7 did NOT do--correctly position the throttles!
My experience with A/T was in BBD business jets, mostly Global. I thought it was fairly intuitive--buttons on the side of the levers were TOGA and were disarmed on touchdown. For take-off, the pilot had to advance the throttles to about the 2/3rds forward position to have the automatics take over. Fortunately, the C-5 had the exact same button arrangement.
Reading the Jetstar report, is it true then that to both select TOGA and have the FMS cycle to GA, the pilot HAS to select full TOGA power? There are no separate TOGA buttons, just the throttle being positioned in TOGA?
In any case, in the EK event, an AB pilot would have had to do exactly what the T7 did NOT do--correctly position the throttles!
My experience with A/T was in BBD business jets, mostly Global. I thought it was fairly intuitive--buttons on the side of the levers were TOGA and were disarmed on touchdown. For take-off, the pilot had to advance the throttles to about the 2/3rds forward position to have the automatics take over. Fortunately, the C-5 had the exact same button arrangement.
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Last edited by GICASI2; 2nd Sep 2017 at 06:43.
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RAT 5 – voice commands – why not?
"Alexa, go around!"
Damn: I forgot; that's what we already do, and that is why there is a PNF. Now, if we could get rid of the PNF and automate the voice commands and all the Thrust/Gear/Flap operations we'd be down to PF + a dog. Now what happens when the CP + HOT make the SOP manual as thick as the Bible. (in some companies it is even more important in saving your soul), and PF can't remember the correct wording. Lots of screaming & yelling until PF succeeds or 'Sharon' the ex-trolly dolly says "there is an error in your command" and you spear in.
There are enough pilots with more divorces than inflight hot toddies. Going to work and not being listened to by some half-wit computer will not help your blood pressure or zen. The medical failure rate will soar and there will be a severe shortage of pilots. The pilotless a/c will loom large on the horizon and there will be a severe shortage of pax.
Managers will run around like headless chickens and we will all learn to enjoy our own backyard that little bit more. Businesses will be concluded via conference video holograms and holidays will be with virtual reality goggles.
It grieves me greatly to watch Federer and the world's perfect backhand, on a grass fresh air court, being reduced to some muppets in front of a Wii screen in their lounge. Or trying to beat Rory Mc' on the links in their attic.
The world is crazy already, let's not accelerate it demise. But, heck, something sure needs fixing.
"Alexa, go around!"
Damn: I forgot; that's what we already do, and that is why there is a PNF. Now, if we could get rid of the PNF and automate the voice commands and all the Thrust/Gear/Flap operations we'd be down to PF + a dog. Now what happens when the CP + HOT make the SOP manual as thick as the Bible. (in some companies it is even more important in saving your soul), and PF can't remember the correct wording. Lots of screaming & yelling until PF succeeds or 'Sharon' the ex-trolly dolly says "there is an error in your command" and you spear in.
There are enough pilots with more divorces than inflight hot toddies. Going to work and not being listened to by some half-wit computer will not help your blood pressure or zen. The medical failure rate will soar and there will be a severe shortage of pilots. The pilotless a/c will loom large on the horizon and there will be a severe shortage of pax.
Managers will run around like headless chickens and we will all learn to enjoy our own backyard that little bit more. Businesses will be concluded via conference video holograms and holidays will be with virtual reality goggles.
It grieves me greatly to watch Federer and the world's perfect backhand, on a grass fresh air court, being reduced to some muppets in front of a Wii screen in their lounge. Or trying to beat Rory Mc' on the links in their attic.
The world is crazy already, let's not accelerate it demise. But, heck, something sure needs fixing.
And this incident only reinforces the need to fly the aircraft in the proscribed manner, as laid down by and certificated by the manufacturer.
The only REAL verfication of "Max" or "GA" thrust is the N1s. Bla bla bla the FMA all you want, if the N1s say you've got the grunt, you've done the deed.
is it true then that to both select TOGA and have the FMS cycle to GA, the pilot HAS to select full TOGA power? There are no separate TOGA buttons, just the throttle being positioned in TOGA?
In any case, in the EK event, an AB pilot would have had to do exactly what the T7 did NOT do--correctly position the throttles!
In any case, in the EK event, an AB pilot would have had to do exactly what the T7 did NOT do--correctly position the throttles!
My experience with A/T was in BBD business jets, mostly Global. I thought it was fairly intuitive--buttons on the side of the levers were TOGA and were disarmed on touchdown.
Glofish describes the best system... "Through the gate, Bloggs!!".
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And as I said before, unless this is a certificated and approved method, as opposed to a 'mates' one, why do it? Unless you can stand in the dock and say 'it was the safest procedure to employ' and be grilled on your understanding by a scheister then I will ask again 'why do it'? BTW my comments have nothing to do with FMAs but what is happening in the real world!
Last edited by GICASI2; 2nd Sep 2017 at 06:42.
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For instance:
Q. How long do you have to leave the THR LVRs at the TOGA detent for the refresh rate of the sensor to log the command?
A. Dunno - a mate told me it was a good way of getting skyward not too quickly
Q. What happens if you are too quick and move the THR LVRs away from the TOGA detent before the command is logged?
A. Ehm.... (You make an a&-e of yourself like the Jetstar crew)
If the big guys (test pilots) haven't done it there is no need to do it!
Thread drift 🚨 alert!
I hope BOEING's lawyers crush this idiotic case quickly. There have been untold numbers of TOGA engagements without incident. I believe EK and ETIHAD removed the pertinent info from their FCOMs - they should be the ones under the microscope not BOEING IMHO.
Q. How long do you have to leave the THR LVRs at the TOGA detent for the refresh rate of the sensor to log the command?
A. Dunno - a mate told me it was a good way of getting skyward not too quickly
Q. What happens if you are too quick and move the THR LVRs away from the TOGA detent before the command is logged?
A. Ehm.... (You make an a&-e of yourself like the Jetstar crew)
If the big guys (test pilots) haven't done it there is no need to do it!
Thread drift 🚨 alert!
I hope BOEING's lawyers crush this idiotic case quickly. There have been untold numbers of TOGA engagements without incident. I believe EK and ETIHAD removed the pertinent info from their FCOMs - they should be the ones under the microscope not BOEING IMHO.
Controversial, moi?
I believe EK and ETIHAD removed the pertinent info from their FCOMs - ....
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Still waiting for an answer reference EK SOP's. (I fly more simple Boeings)
ON takeoff who does what with power levers? SOP
e.g. PF pre-sets TL's; presses TOGA: PF/PM follows through and confirms required thrust is set, then Captain sets hands on TL's until V1. Rotate, +ve rate & gear up.
On GA. who does what with TL's as "Go Around " is called. SOP?
IMHO I would expect the duties to be similar to reduce risk of errors.
ON takeoff who does what with power levers? SOP
e.g. PF pre-sets TL's; presses TOGA: PF/PM follows through and confirms required thrust is set, then Captain sets hands on TL's until V1. Rotate, +ve rate & gear up.
On GA. who does what with TL's as "Go Around " is called. SOP?
IMHO I would expect the duties to be similar to reduce risk of errors.
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So, no excuse then - definitely not spending my $s on Emirates! Etihad B777 skipper had no knowledge of the TOGA inhibit and couldn't find it when he looked.
