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Old 13th Sep 2017, 09:31   #101 (permalink)
 
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the whole thing is a stitch up. That is what one needs to be wary of. The issues over who earns what and what they may end up earning is a side issue.

The big issue here is whether society is happy for a government to work alongside its former state airline in ensuring it has complete market dominance. I am not a fan of O'Leary but on this one occasion he has been talking sense. With the German transport minister openly stating that Germany needs a champion of aviation and that champion should be Lufthansa, it is time to properly question the whole debacle.
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 10:47   #102 (permalink)
 
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They are getting paid for three months from an insolvency fund and so should be fine. Just like almost anyone else, pilots are not career civil servants with guaranteed lifelong employment, so redundancy is a risk they share with all employees who have to pay bills, mortgages.
The amount of money guaranteed however is less than half of the normal salary for pretty much all pilots at air berlin. So no, their pay isn't guaranteed.

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Calling in sick is reportedly a small group of captains on very generous former LTU contracts. They are not taking the "we enjoyed it while it lasted" (i.e. for decade since LTU disappeared) approach, but expect to keep the conditions with a future employer. With is quite understandable from their perspective - but realistically, they are not the ones calling the shots. What they apparently fear is that because of their fat cat salaries airberlin and the potential investor want to get rid of them by way of closing down longhaul ops which would give airberlin the opportunity to make them lawfully redundant before the company is taken over by someone else. Bit like brushing up the high maintenance bride...
Again, not entirely correct. Yes, there are quite a few ex LTU captains in that group, but they are not alone there by far. And they do not have better contracts than the rest of the airberlin pilots, in fact the last LTU contract is around 40% less pay than the current airberlin contract. And since airberlin has no exclusive longhaul fleet but rather only MFF (mixed fleet flying) there is no way one can fire only those old LTU guys, however, prospective buyers of parts of the company could of course cherry pick, which they cannot anymore if a normal germany procedure called Sozialauswahl (social selection) would be followed. And the sick out is only about going into that social selection procedure, which is governed by employment law.
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 11:43   #103 (permalink)
 
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The amount of money guaranteed however is less than half of the normal salary for pretty much all pilots at air berlin. So no, their pay isn't guaranteed.
Doesn't airbelrin cover the balance between the agreed salary and the statutory cap in order to stop the pilots from leaving the sinking ship?

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Again, not entirely correct. Yes, there are quite a few ex LTU captains in that group, but they are not alone there by far. And they do not have better contracts than the rest of the airberlin pilots, in fact the last LTU contract is around 40% less pay than the current airberlin contract. And since airberlin has no exclusive longhaul fleet but rather only MFF (mixed fleet flying) there is no way one can fire only those old LTU guys, however, prospective buyers of parts of the company could of course cherry pick, which they cannot anymore if a normal germany procedure called Sozialauswahl (social selection) would be followed. And the sick out is only about going into that social selection procedure, which is governed by employment law.
So bottom line is that it is about one group of pilots against the other? And those on strike would rather sink the whole ship than keep it afloat if as a result the other group of pilots has better chances to get hired? I don't see how management can cave in here - if the striking pilots get their will, the majority of non-striking pilots will see their chances of employment with an investor shrinking.
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 12:18   #104 (permalink)
 
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A bit harsh of anyone to come on here to call out any AB crews trying to maintain their T&Cs given the strike record of LH's crews over the past couple of years.
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 12:58   #105 (permalink)
 
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Well, last time I checked Lufthansa never stood on the edge of the cliff...
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 14:40   #106 (permalink)
 
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A bit harsh of anyone to come on here to call out any AB crews trying to maintain their T&Cs given the strike record of LH's crews over the past couple of years.
The situation is hardly comparable.
The striking pilots are playing a very dangerous game IMHO - I understand that they might only have bad choices but it could backfire quite violently...
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 15:19   #107 (permalink)
 
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Well, last time I checked Lufthansa never stood on the edge of the cliff...

Agreed.....

But was it 14 or 15 or 16 strikes over the past couple of years and always about their own T&Cs....Never about the poorer T&Cs in other Lufthansa Group Companies such as Aerologic, Tyrolean, Eurowings, etc.

And let's be honest, AB fell off the cliff months or even years ago - it isn't stood on the edge and, as always, hardly anything to do with or fault of the crews.
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 15:23   #108 (permalink)
 
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And let's be honest, AB fell off the cliff months or even years ago
A few posters have made similar comments and I wonder what the factual basis is for them?
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 15:59   #109 (permalink)
 
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This gives me no great pleasure, but....

https://centreforaviation.com/insigh...16-loss-279882

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Eight successive years of operating loss

For airberlin 2015 was its eighth successive year of operating losses and its seventh net loss in the past eight years. The only net profit reported in that period, in 2012, was achieved only thanks to the sale of its topbonus loyalty programme to Etihad, shortly after Etihad became airberlin's biggest shareholder in late 2011.
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Old 13th Sep 2017, 16:02   #110 (permalink)
 
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A few posters have made similar comments and I wonder what the factual basis is for them?
Perhaps RAT5's post is closest. I remember thinking along the same lines several years ago. Their business model was basically a shambles from around the time they went for the PMI hub and their acquisition of LTU. I remember, at the time, flying DUS-MAD-DUS in their European Business Class for €280.00, and thinking it won't last.
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Old 14th Sep 2017, 01:20   #111 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
Agreed.....

But was it 14 or 15 or 16 strikes over the past couple of years and always about their own T&Cs....Never about the poorer T&Cs in other Lufthansa Group Companies such as Aerologic, Tyrolean, Eurowings, etc.
The actual number of strikes was much less, because the tactics was "needle stitches".
Example:
Monday short haul, Tuesday long haul.
Some months later 6-12h clock long haul, the rest of the day short haul...
So the media (or public relations) just counted every fleet as another event.

And one can only strike for ones -own- collective agreement. It's illegal to strike for anything else.
That's the problem. Employer tries to outplay the different pilot groups against each other.
But Eurowings could strike as well, they have their own CA. Not Eurowings Europe though, their AOC is not even in Germany.

Btw. Aerologic is not a Lufthansa group airline whatsoever. They are just a joint venture with DHL and their pilots do not have a collective agreement / union representation. Their wages are freely negotiated. Neither can they switch companies within the group.
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Old 14th Sep 2017, 06:12   #112 (permalink)
 
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And one can only strike for ones -own- collective agreement. It's illegal to strike for anything else.
Actually, sympathy strikes are legal if certain guidelines are followed.
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Old 14th Sep 2017, 15:42   #113 (permalink)
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Except this was not a strike but individual people calling in sick.( or more correctly unfit to fly)
Big difference from a legal point of view.
I also understand that VC Cockpit is not supporting the action. So AB cannot even call it a collective action so I do not see AB going to court over this.
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Old 14th Sep 2017, 16:31   #114 (permalink)
 
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No, they won't. Because they know, even if there was a somewhat organized thing, that it wasn't the reasons for the cancellations. The sick rate for captains was 8% higher than the average, for FOs around 5%. That is well within the normal day to day variations. And the company did cancel flights where the crew was already on board and preparing to fly, for no apparent reason.

Already six months ago they knew that they won't have enough pilots for the september schedule, and that got worse three months ago when they decided to go from 60 to 75 minutes check in time and from 30 to 45 check out time starting 1st of september, which increased the crew demand considerably.

Apparently a huge operational problem was covered up by having a convenient scape goat.
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Old 14th Sep 2017, 19:35   #115 (permalink)
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Thanks for that inside info Denti. Sounds exactly to what the Spanish old ANSP (AENA) did with the controllers in Madrid some years ago. Diversion to hide a bigger problem and using the media to focus on easy "overpaid" targets . Sadly it worked .
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Old 14th Sep 2017, 23:32   #116 (permalink)
 
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It seems like that Niki Lauda is interested in Air Berlin

Former F1 champion Niki Lauda eyes parts of Air Berlin, Transport - THE BUSINESS TIMES
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Old 15th Sep 2017, 00:18   #117 (permalink)

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Busted flush

Lauda, along with other vultures, is looking to pick up "profitable" carrion.

None of those fools know what they are doing, just airline failures on their cv's.
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Old 15th Sep 2017, 07:08   #118 (permalink)
 
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CONDOR seems to be part of it as well :

http://www.avitrader.com/2017/09/14/...of-air-berlin/
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Old 15th Sep 2017, 14:05   #119 (permalink)
 
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Interesting post on the German PPRuNe - an insider claims that it is all a stitch-up and Lufthansa group has bought 10 of airberlin's A330-200 from AerCap in order to stall the interest from other investors in taking over airberlin inclusive of the long-haul ops. Another source alleges that IAG had been looking into that part of airberlin with the aim to expand Level. Depending on how the sale of airberlin itself works out, it is said that Lufthansa is planning to get Eurowings long-haul started at DUS with the help of Brussels Airlines (while until now Eurowings longhaul is exclusively operated by SunExpress)
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Old 15th Sep 2017, 14:27   #120 (permalink)
 
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The bids are in:
Mehrere Bieter für insolvente Air Berlin | Reuters

LH Group is offering a low 3 digit million € figure to get 70-90 aircraft, probably as a stand alone unit of A320 aircraft and crew to serve EW. Condor and Lauda are bidding for A320s, as is Easyjet. It doesn't look like anyone bid for the longhaul business, probably because of high LTU flight crew contracts. LH it seems made deals behind the scenes with Gecas and/or Aercap to take the A332 for EW longhaul.
Zeitfracht wants the LGW, Leisure Cargo and the MRO operation.
Utz Claasen, Wöhrl and Jonatan Pang each want to take over the airline completely...
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