Pilot fatigue...a victory, of sorts
How do we know his union did not give him their full support?
What happened to Tired Pilots Risk Lives?? That was a big campaign. This would have been such good PR for them, and a huge victory and precedent to quote in future.
So sad when individuals have to be sacrificed when there are thousands of pilots standing shoulder to shoulder.
We do stand shoulder to shoulder on fatigue, do we not?
If the guy concerned ever looks at this, hear this: you are a legend, "thank you on behalf of every UK pilot".
What happened to Tired Pilots Risk Lives?? That was a big campaign. This would have been such good PR for them, and a huge victory and precedent to quote in future.
So sad when individuals have to be sacrificed when there are thousands of pilots standing shoulder to shoulder.
We do stand shoulder to shoulder on fatigue, do we not?
If the guy concerned ever looks at this, hear this: you are a legend, "thank you on behalf of every UK pilot".
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: LHR
Posts: 556
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is worth remembering that a Chief Pilot's favourite employee is the pilot he has never heard of. That pilot has never filed a safety report, always takes minimum fuel, always seems to arrive with fuel above minimums, always flies 2/3 hours of discretion without question and does all this without attracting complaints from his co-workers.
If you are someone that draws the line at rule-bending, never sharp-pencils loadsheets or flight plans and always files an MOR when safety is threatened - Then you are deemed to be 'difficult'.
Remember..... a Chief Pilot spends 98% of his working time dealing with 2% of his workforce. If an opportunity is presented to him to dispense with some/all of those 2% then he would obviously look to lighten his workload. It is simply human nature.
Chief Pilots are rather like football managers. 3 defeats and you are looking at the dole queue. If the CP says 'No' to one of his commercial superiors too many times then another ambitious individual is never far away.... waiting in the wings for his job.
If you are someone that draws the line at rule-bending, never sharp-pencils loadsheets or flight plans and always files an MOR when safety is threatened - Then you are deemed to be 'difficult'.
Remember..... a Chief Pilot spends 98% of his working time dealing with 2% of his workforce. If an opportunity is presented to him to dispense with some/all of those 2% then he would obviously look to lighten his workload. It is simply human nature.
Chief Pilots are rather like football managers. 3 defeats and you are looking at the dole queue. If the CP says 'No' to one of his commercial superiors too many times then another ambitious individual is never far away.... waiting in the wings for his job.
Only half a speed-brake
Originally Posted by RexBanner
Ask a certain Eastern European low cost Airbus operator who regularly rostered duties that were planned to go into discretion. Two such days in a row were not uncommon.
In the case discussed the company's stance at court is that you can commence a duty planned on the use of discretion. Well, not in my EASA based OM-A, but maybe the wording of regulations has changed since.
Many of us, over-the-channel or even AOC-of-convenience operators, do look towards the UK for best practice. Hence my question about UK CAA stance on this, present day.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 887
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh believe me I wasn't suggesting it made it right, quite the opposite. Having worked such punishing rosters - where it was the norm for controlled rest to be carried out on every sector - the neglect from the airline and the regulator in allowing such practices to occur is frightening.
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 913
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How do we know his union did not give him their full support?
What happened to Tired Pilots Risk Lives?? That was a big campaign. This would have been such good PR for them, and a huge victory and precedent to quote in future.
So sad when individuals have to be sacrificed when there are thousands of pilots standing shoulder to shoulder.
We do stand shoulder to shoulder on fatigue, do we not?
If the guy concerned ever looks at this, hear this: you are a legend, "thank you on behalf of every UK pilot".
What happened to Tired Pilots Risk Lives?? That was a big campaign. This would have been such good PR for them, and a huge victory and precedent to quote in future.
So sad when individuals have to be sacrificed when there are thousands of pilots standing shoulder to shoulder.
We do stand shoulder to shoulder on fatigue, do we not?
If the guy concerned ever looks at this, hear this: you are a legend, "thank you on behalf of every UK pilot".
Only half a speed-brake
Rex, I did not, for a second. May I suspect, that Wizzair in the way of post-totalitarian mindset (same roots as me, actually) rigged the paperwork to make it look in line with the books?
I read the rest of your sentence as "misconduct by the operator and blind eye from regulator", in which I guess we'd now come the full circle back to the topic of this thread?
I read the rest of your sentence as "misconduct by the operator and blind eye from regulator", in which I guess we'd now come the full circle back to the topic of this thread?
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: France
Age: 54
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
here is a link to download the complete 13 Mb PDF file.
https://1drv.ms/f/s!AnNYZSyyHWmAkn0zBoDnaKbDzQvJ
https://1drv.ms/f/s!AnNYZSyyHWmAkn0zBoDnaKbDzQvJ
F & B
FWIW as I've heard it (through union sources) the sequence of events is pretty much as macdo described : the Union didn't provide support initially...
How do we know his union did not give him their full support?
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Magplug's got it right. The individual concerned would almost certainly be seen by (mis)management as being one of the 2%. His peers hold him in high regard and are grateful to him for standing up for common sense.
A shame the management took this stance when they did. It was an error of judgement on their behalf but they'll never admit it or say sorry.
A shame the management took this stance when they did. It was an error of judgement on their behalf but they'll never admit it or say sorry.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tay Cough
Thnak you for the suggestion which unfortunately was not successful. Think I have tried everything now and am now trawling through the document online. Its a pity because I think every airline pilot should read and keep this. Thanks again anyway.
Just spotted Mach 62's link: Thank you, worked perfectly.
Thnak you for the suggestion which unfortunately was not successful. Think I have tried everything now and am now trawling through the document online. Its a pity because I think every airline pilot should read and keep this. Thanks again anyway.
Just spotted Mach 62's link: Thank you, worked perfectly.
Last edited by Starbear; 11th Dec 2016 at 16:14. Reason: Adding ref to PDF download from Mach 62
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[I fly from London to Australia non-stop
Will take 17 hours to Perth making it the worlds longest non stop route.[/I]
Well that's alright then. They'll lobby the muppets at EASA that there is a strong case to increase FTL's to make this economical. They could use a 'dispatch crew' to reduce check in to 30mins. They could then include a bunk behind the flight deck with a panic button for the 'on watch' pilot. C.A's would keep an eye on the PF to make sure they're awake. PM is napping & then they swap over.
Perhaps 2 hours discretion will be required, but hey, that's the norm, no? To avoid jet lag the crew will decamp into airport hotel, eat, sleep, shower, eat again then after 15hours total rest be on the way home.
Job done. Never say Never. Inspect the rosters from decades ago & now. Money talks, no shouts.
Will take 17 hours to Perth making it the worlds longest non stop route.[/I]
Well that's alright then. They'll lobby the muppets at EASA that there is a strong case to increase FTL's to make this economical. They could use a 'dispatch crew' to reduce check in to 30mins. They could then include a bunk behind the flight deck with a panic button for the 'on watch' pilot. C.A's would keep an eye on the PF to make sure they're awake. PM is napping & then they swap over.
Perhaps 2 hours discretion will be required, but hey, that's the norm, no? To avoid jet lag the crew will decamp into airport hotel, eat, sleep, shower, eat again then after 15hours total rest be on the way home.
Job done. Never say Never. Inspect the rosters from decades ago & now. Money talks, no shouts.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting reading, well done to that captain concerned, curiously I wonder if those involved in this whole mismanagement such as the named Chief Pilot and DFO will continue to work in that company, surely their deceptive fraudulent behaviour which the tribunal unmasked, really inspire confidence in their pilots, should they be allowed to continue leading? those are serious questions which should be answered, they seem willing to risk public safety in order to simply by that account spite somebody who stood up to them.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stan / Right Way
My view is inappropriate use of the word fatigue that's all. I've suffered from fatigue for sure and I might be wrong as the report didn't include the Captains roster leading up to the event.
All too often the F word is used when sleepiness might be more appropriate e.g. the need to sleep.
Mr Angry....care to elaborate?
All too often the F word is used when sleepiness might be more appropriate e.g. the need to sleep.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's questionable why BALPA initially didn't get involve, as the chief pilot use to be the company council member, "old boys club"
And the named person as the Director of Ops this guy, VIDEO: Paul Hutchings, Group Director of Flight Operations ? World Travel Awards
Well say no more.
And the named person as the Director of Ops this guy, VIDEO: Paul Hutchings, Group Director of Flight Operations ? World Travel Awards
Well say no more.
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Centre of Universe
Posts: 371
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My understanding on block times was that the schedule was in place seasonally. If on the day the predicted block time was longer the FDP was based on the scheduled time rather than the actual. This was of course on the assumption that the block time was accurate (which with so much time spent on OTP these days they normally are, apart from Ryanair who seem always to be much longer). The flight however was a one off. There must be data though on the flight to/from as these are standard sectors the bit in-between not.
In the days of CAP371 this was a constant discussion on long haul flights e.g. the old up to 7 and factorisation of ETOPS flights. You'd have thought the Captain would have run into that before and had similar discussions. In this case if the schedule was 8hrs 55hrs but due to headwinds 9hrs 40mins the FDP was based on the schedule times not predicted.
Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
In the days of CAP371 this was a constant discussion on long haul flights e.g. the old up to 7 and factorisation of ETOPS flights. You'd have thought the Captain would have run into that before and had similar discussions. In this case if the schedule was 8hrs 55hrs but due to headwinds 9hrs 40mins the FDP was based on the schedule times not predicted.
Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
Only half a speed-brake
Thank you Twiglet. Seasonal schedule and days when winds blow just the other way, it happens. However this was a round-robin routing, was it not?
Mr Angry
His roster of 3 earlies including an extended 3rd day followed by a transition to a late would suggest a fatiguing roster.
I am intrigued to the type of operation you fly in. You speak of the need to sleep rather than it being fatigue however his roster caused that lack of sleep by the earlies that then meant he woke early (5.30 ish) on the day of his late duty. That is fatigue!
the ICAO definition of crewmember fatigue was given as:
A physiological state of reduced mental or physical performance capability resulting from sleep loss or extended wakefulness, circadian phase, or workload (mental and/or physical activity) that can impair a crew member’s alertness and ability to safely operate an aircraft or perform safety related duties.
A physiological state of reduced mental or physical performance capability resulting from sleep loss or extended wakefulness, circadian phase, or workload (mental and/or physical activity) that can impair a crew member’s alertness and ability to safely operate an aircraft or perform safety related duties.
I am intrigued to the type of operation you fly in. You speak of the need to sleep rather than it being fatigue however his roster caused that lack of sleep by the earlies that then meant he woke early (5.30 ish) on the day of his late duty. That is fatigue!
