AVIANCA B787 Intercepted by Venezuelan Sukhois
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AVIANCA B787 Intercepted by Venezuelan Sukhois
It appears that an Avianca Dreamliner from Madrid to Bogota was intercepted by 2 Venezuelan Su 30s today. The B787 is alleged to have suffered failures of its transponder height and callsign info being transmitted. TCAS alerts were experienced apparently. Colombia has now ceased all flights to Venezuela as a result of this 'diplomatic incident'
Last edited by Jetset 88; 22nd Oct 2016 at 20:45. Reason: punctuation
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Colombia has now ceased all flights to Venezuela as a result of this 'diplomatic incident'
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Two sides of the story.
Venezuelan reports say the Avianca 787 had an ADS-B malfunction over Venezuelan airspace and as a result Venezuela scrambled two SU-30s to intercept the aircraft.
Colombian reports say there was no transponder malfunction and the 787 was in normal contact with Venezuelan ATC. Allegedly Venezuelan fighter jets already in flight on a routine mission decided to intercept the 787 but did not follow proper procedures and caused a TCAS RA. The intercept continued for four minutes, and ended shortly before the 787 entered Colombian airspace.
Venezuelan reports say the Avianca 787 had an ADS-B malfunction over Venezuelan airspace and as a result Venezuela scrambled two SU-30s to intercept the aircraft.
Colombian reports say there was no transponder malfunction and the 787 was in normal contact with Venezuelan ATC. Allegedly Venezuelan fighter jets already in flight on a routine mission decided to intercept the 787 but did not follow proper procedures and caused a TCAS RA. The intercept continued for four minutes, and ended shortly before the 787 entered Colombian airspace.
I'd be more interested to know whether the 787 changed attitude as per normal TCAS procedure.
And whether a visual had already been made, thereby revealing the reason for it.
Is it possible they may have manouvered with presumably non-TCAS fitted aircraft either side of them?
Interesting piece of Swiss cheese alignment
And whether a visual had already been made, thereby revealing the reason for it.
Is it possible they may have manouvered with presumably non-TCAS fitted aircraft either side of them?
Interesting piece of Swiss cheese alignment
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Colombia's Avianca airline AVT_p.CN will restart flights to Venezuela after one of its aircraft was approached by at least one Venezuelan warplane on Friday, creating a diplomatic incident and prompting the airline to cancel flights to and from the socialist country.
Avianca said it would resume flights on Sunday, after cancelling transport to Venezuela when a passenger jet flying from Madrid to Bogota was briefly approached by Venezuelan military aircraft on Friday evening, resulting in diplomatic conversations and Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro ordering an investigation.
"After clarifications between the governments of Colombia and Venezuela about the incident registered last night in Venezuelan skies with an Avianca plane, the Colombian civil aviation authority has authorized the restart of operations to and from Venezuela," Avianca said in a statement on Saturday evening.
Avianca said it would resume flights on Sunday, after cancelling transport to Venezuela when a passenger jet flying from Madrid to Bogota was briefly approached by Venezuelan military aircraft on Friday evening, resulting in diplomatic conversations and Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro ordering an investigation.
"After clarifications between the governments of Colombia and Venezuela about the incident registered last night in Venezuelan skies with an Avianca plane, the Colombian civil aviation authority has authorized the restart of operations to and from Venezuela," Avianca said in a statement on Saturday evening.
Flight data also showed the Avianca Boeing Dreamliner took a sharp turn when flying over west Venezuela around 2000 local time (2000 EST/0000 GMT) on Friday, in line with a statement about the incident released by the Colombian defense ministry.
Both nations' defense and foreign ministers discussed the plane incident, the statement said. It said Maduro "personally ordered the investigation into the case."
"The ministers have spoken and cleared it all up, everything is normal," Colombian President Juan Manuel Santos said during a visit to cacao growers on Saturday afternoon. "There's no need to worry."
Both nations' defense and foreign ministers discussed the plane incident, the statement said. It said Maduro "personally ordered the investigation into the case."
"The ministers have spoken and cleared it all up, everything is normal," Colombian President Juan Manuel Santos said during a visit to cacao growers on Saturday afternoon. "There's no need to worry."
TCAS maneuver sounds more and more likely.
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Avianca Boeing Dreamliner took a sharp turn when flying over west Venezuela
TCAS maneuver sounds more and more likely.
not quite.Nav/FMS error or as indicated on first post a loss of SSR data more likely.
Anyway, any State can intercept any aircrfat flying over his territory for whatever reason. Bruised feathers because of the 2 countries relations , but from a pure Civil aviation point of view , a non issue., unless there was a risk of collision of course.
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FWIW, I believe this was the flight (AV11). Multiple open sources including FlightAware and FR24 show continuous ADS-B coverage over Venezuela with no breaks in altitude or callsign data, in contradiction to early reports from Venezuela.
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TCAS only requires the "other" aircraft to have a functioning transponder (of any type).
If the intercepting aircraft had only Mode A, then the 787's TCAS II will issue TAs (Traffic Advisories) as required
If the intercepting aircraft had a Mode C or Mode S transponder, then the 787's TCAS II will generate TAs and RAs (Resolution Advisories)
Only "coordinated RAs" require both aircraft to have TCAS IIs.
If the intercepting aircraft had only Mode A, then the 787's TCAS II will issue TAs (Traffic Advisories) as required
If the intercepting aircraft had a Mode C or Mode S transponder, then the 787's TCAS II will generate TAs and RAs (Resolution Advisories)
Only "coordinated RAs" require both aircraft to have TCAS IIs.
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Perhaps a visual see and avoid maneuver then?
Assuming the "sudden turn" is what we see on the picture above, this is first 30 degrees for 25 NM.then another for 30 NM . Hardly collision avoidance turns. if a/c was not in contact with ATC or gave unsatisfactory answers , good reason to have a look and intercept I would say.
For those using FR24 more intensely , is the blue dotted line the original flight plan route , based on the actual PLN or just random ?
TCAS : what peekay4 says is absolutely correct technically , except that international Interception procedures require the first interceptor ( the one that comes close to the target ) to switch off his transponder just to avoid TCAS RAs from the aircraft intercepted, vertical manoeuvres that could be wrongly interpreted by the interceptors.
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international Interception procedures require the first interceptor ( the one that comes close to the target ) to switch off his transponder just to avoid TCAS RAs from the aircraft intercepted, vertical manoeuvres that could be wrongly interpreted by the interceptors.
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TCAS : what peekay4 says is absolutely correct technically , except that international Interception procedures require the first interceptor ( the one that comes close to the target ) to switch off his transponder just to avoid TCAS RAs from the aircraft intercepted
Allegedly Venezuelan fighter jets already in flight on a routine mission decided to intercept the 787 but did not follow proper procedures and caused a TCAS RA.
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Originally Posted by ATC
Interception procedures require the first interceptor ( the one that comes close to the target ) to switch off his transponder
Same answer as towards those asking why fighters are not equipped with TCAS : intercepts are the daily staple of fighters, you rejoin other aircraft, big or small, VFR or clouds/night up to a very close range, and quite often the ground-based radar does need you return (which he can have on his primary radar, however)
For a liner, a TCAS event is a big thing - for a fighter, a sort of non-event. A successful interception in itself is more important.
By the way, Venezuelans are Venezuelans, when Colombians are in the hands of the Americans (their president got the the Nobel peace prize, which is a confirmation of that
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National procedures will differ. However, this is the recommendation from ICAO 9433, "Manual concerning Interception of Civil Aircraft" (basically, turn off Mode C/S to avoid RA):
If the intercepted aircraft is so equipped, the ACAS may perceive the interceptor
as a collision threat and thus provide a resolution advisory for avoidance.
Therefore, care must be taken that such an avoidance manoeuvre(s), if undertaken
before the pilot-in-command of the intercepted aircraft is aware of the interception,
is not misinterpreted as an indication of unfriendly intentions.
This situation can be avoided if the interceptor suppresses the transmission
of pressure-altitude information in its SSR transponder replies within a range
of at least 20 NM (approximately 30 seconds) of the aircraft being intercepted.
This prevents the ACAS in the intercepted aircraft from using resolution advisories
in respect of the interceptor, while the ACAS traffic advisory information will remain
available.
as a collision threat and thus provide a resolution advisory for avoidance.
Therefore, care must be taken that such an avoidance manoeuvre(s), if undertaken
before the pilot-in-command of the intercepted aircraft is aware of the interception,
is not misinterpreted as an indication of unfriendly intentions.
This situation can be avoided if the interceptor suppresses the transmission
of pressure-altitude information in its SSR transponder replies within a range
of at least 20 NM (approximately 30 seconds) of the aircraft being intercepted.
This prevents the ACAS in the intercepted aircraft from using resolution advisories
in respect of the interceptor, while the ACAS traffic advisory information will remain
available.
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National procedures will differ. However, this is the recommendation from ICAO 9433
In a fighter cockpit or an Air Defence OPS room, who cares about an OACI "recommendation" ?
within a range of at least 20 NM
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Yes, seriously. Why make the job more difficult?
If an intercept causes TCAS RAs, then the interceptor must deal with the resulting the escape maneuvers.
A military intercept a few years ago caused the target (a civilian ATR72 full of passengers) to perform numerous successive TCAS RA escape procedures for nearly 20 minutes!!
The ATR72 crew thought they were in imminent collision and the passengers must have been out of their minds!
Not only this encounter endangered flight safety, but surely it would have been better for the interceptor to simply have turned off his Mode C per procedure, and avoided all the extra work of chasing the plane for 20 minutes.
And I'm sure his commanders weren't too pleased to deal with the ensuing bad press and media circus!
If an intercept causes TCAS RAs, then the interceptor must deal with the resulting the escape maneuvers.
A military intercept a few years ago caused the target (a civilian ATR72 full of passengers) to perform numerous successive TCAS RA escape procedures for nearly 20 minutes!!
The ATR72 crew thought they were in imminent collision and the passengers must have been out of their minds!
Not only this encounter endangered flight safety, but surely it would have been better for the interceptor to simply have turned off his Mode C per procedure, and avoided all the extra work of chasing the plane for 20 minutes.
And I'm sure his commanders weren't too pleased to deal with the ensuing bad press and media circus!
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recceguy :
Shows your age 
Well ICAO is all about recommendations ( the "R" in SARPs) and yes, even in France ( the country where I assume you were "doing intercepts" ) the procedure is applied and they normally do take ICAO recommendations very seriously.
They also had they own incident, similar to peekay4 example, with a Dutch B737 over Cambrai lost between 2 frequencies a month after 9/11 where both a/c dived around 20.000 ft at 4000 ft/min in the end, as the squawking Mirage kept right on with it keeping the 737 RA alive. The 737 switching finally to 121,5 saved the day in the end.
But lessons were learnt, and measures designed to prevent recurrence. .
Never heard of that when I was doing intercepts on my own fighter.
In a fighter cockpit or an Air Defence OPS room, who cares about an OACI "recommendation" ?
They also had they own incident, similar to peekay4 example, with a Dutch B737 over Cambrai lost between 2 frequencies a month after 9/11 where both a/c dived around 20.000 ft at 4000 ft/min in the end, as the squawking Mirage kept right on with it keeping the 737 RA alive. The 737 switching finally to 121,5 saved the day in the end.
But lessons were learnt, and measures designed to prevent recurrence. .