Easy Strike?
Tubby Linton sums it up very nicely.
Can I also add that this is not about pay, it is about fatigue, safety and sustainable working rosters so that someone joining in their 20's is able to fly a full time career at easyJet if that is what they would like. Not feeling like the only way to survive long term is go part time.
Can I also add that this is not about pay, it is about fatigue, safety and sustainable working rosters so that someone joining in their 20's is able to fly a full time career at easyJet if that is what they would like. Not feeling like the only way to survive long term is go part time.
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the only way to survive long term is go part time.
Been there, down that. No wife, or only one, no kids = possible. And it can be fun. Otherwise????
Been there, down that. No wife, or only one, no kids = possible. And it can be fun. Otherwise????
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Mr Angry, you miss my point.
Please tell me you AOC so I can promptly apply? And I work for one of the reputable big boys who does at least try to help their staff, and even I have seen an increase in fatigue under EASA. It is simply unsustainable.
EASA was written to give the crew a say, and emplace extreme limits. In reality. The airlines use EASA as a target, and try calling in sick. I have multiple friends who have received phone calls from senior managers demanding they explain the personal circumstances at home, asking deeply prying questions, challenging their decisions about discretion, all in the name of "helping" the employee deal with the fatigue issue.
EASA was written in some wimsical, fairy tale world of wonderful airline managers. It does not translate.
So once again, good on the EZY guys and gals. Best of luck!
Please tell me you AOC so I can promptly apply? And I work for one of the reputable big boys who does at least try to help their staff, and even I have seen an increase in fatigue under EASA. It is simply unsustainable.
EASA was written to give the crew a say, and emplace extreme limits. In reality. The airlines use EASA as a target, and try calling in sick. I have multiple friends who have received phone calls from senior managers demanding they explain the personal circumstances at home, asking deeply prying questions, challenging their decisions about discretion, all in the name of "helping" the employee deal with the fatigue issue.
EASA was written in some wimsical, fairy tale world of wonderful airline managers. It does not translate.
So once again, good on the EZY guys and gals. Best of luck!
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Well done to the journalists and editors at the The Sun.... They have gotten to the real reason for the strike... Easyjet pilots simply wish to bring misery to families over the October School Break.
incidentally, this sort of ****ty journalism can actually work in the favour of those wishing to strike as this will bring rpessure on the airline to resolve the matter quickly as passengers will be nervous about booking.... so, as I said.... Well done the The Sun
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/176266...k-from-school/
incidentally, this sort of ****ty journalism can actually work in the favour of those wishing to strike as this will bring rpessure on the airline to resolve the matter quickly as passengers will be nervous about booking.... so, as I said.... Well done the The Sun
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/176266...k-from-school/
Hey there Purley boy, you clearly just wanted a reaction.
Not much point in trying to get a pay hike if you're dead because of a fatal error due to being knackered, or getting a fatigue related condition that cans your medical.
I dread to think how many crew have had car accidents or near misses whilst driving home after day six or seven. Sadly, I fear there will be many more.
More hours at work, more non flying admin being shovelled onto crew to do.. Sadly the regulators don't appear to come along to observe the long fatiguing flights, or join us for a pleasant little night IBZ etc
It ain't going to change I'm afraid. I wish I could escape.
Not much point in trying to get a pay hike if you're dead because of a fatal error due to being knackered, or getting a fatigue related condition that cans your medical.
I dread to think how many crew have had car accidents or near misses whilst driving home after day six or seven. Sadly, I fear there will be many more.
More hours at work, more non flying admin being shovelled onto crew to do.. Sadly the regulators don't appear to come along to observe the long fatiguing flights, or join us for a pleasant little night IBZ etc
It ain't going to change I'm afraid. I wish I could escape.
Be grateful Fokker that you are the north side of forty and are not going to have to do this for almost forty years. I very much doubt that a cadet joining now in their early twenties will still be flying in their late fifties.
It does bring into question the whole model of low cost airlines and cadets. To start, a very large expenditure for the training plus a student loan for a degree to pay off when they really want to be saving for somewhere to live. Then having been trained, month after month of hard work with no social life ,then a command and more of the same ,and then finally burnt out and hopefully not so medically damaged that they cannot find alternative employment.
Trying to reinvent yourself in your late thirties or early forties with a new career will take some planning or a very expensive loss of licence policy. I can see a bubble developing in the next ten to fifteen years of medically unfit pilots who have been run into the ground by low cost flying and EASA FTL. Meanwhile the airlines will have made large profits and paid their senior management huge bonuses. If you work out an escape plan please send me a pm.
It does bring into question the whole model of low cost airlines and cadets. To start, a very large expenditure for the training plus a student loan for a degree to pay off when they really want to be saving for somewhere to live. Then having been trained, month after month of hard work with no social life ,then a command and more of the same ,and then finally burnt out and hopefully not so medically damaged that they cannot find alternative employment.
Trying to reinvent yourself in your late thirties or early forties with a new career will take some planning or a very expensive loss of licence policy. I can see a bubble developing in the next ten to fifteen years of medically unfit pilots who have been run into the ground by low cost flying and EASA FTL. Meanwhile the airlines will have made large profits and paid their senior management huge bonuses. If you work out an escape plan please send me a pm.
Last edited by tubby linton; 13th Sep 2016 at 23:37. Reason: Grammer
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One of the contributers to this thread is ex, perhaps current, crewing/rostering of known (to me) anti pilot views. But to move on..
Andrew Haines, CAA Chief Exec, on record: "There is no doubt fatigue is an issue but, at the moment, the evidence we need isn't there, because pilots don't tend to report it".
The reasons why pilots don't report fatigue have been posted previously; as have the CAA approved Doctor's (AME's) concerns.
But to those non industry readers of this thread; the industry regulator is concerned about fatigue in pilots, the Doctors who monitor pilots health and have a legal responsibility to the regulator to monitor pilots health are concerned about fatigue. Easyjet, one of the largest UK/European airlines, could potentially be on strike becasue of fatigue concerns.
As ever in the aviation industry/service industry, until the there is an incident involving loss of life on the scale of multiples, nothing will happen.
Andrew Haines, CAA Chief Exec, on record: "There is no doubt fatigue is an issue but, at the moment, the evidence we need isn't there, because pilots don't tend to report it".
The reasons why pilots don't report fatigue have been posted previously; as have the CAA approved Doctor's (AME's) concerns.
But to those non industry readers of this thread; the industry regulator is concerned about fatigue in pilots, the Doctors who monitor pilots health and have a legal responsibility to the regulator to monitor pilots health are concerned about fatigue. Easyjet, one of the largest UK/European airlines, could potentially be on strike becasue of fatigue concerns.
As ever in the aviation industry/service industry, until the there is an incident involving loss of life on the scale of multiples, nothing will happen.
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I have heard (rumours) of lads at work calling in fatigued.
A few days later they are summoned to a meeting and ordered into changing their sickness reason from fatigue to something else so the authorities dont need to be informed....
Like i said rumours, but no smoke without fire i say.
A few days later they are summoned to a meeting and ordered into changing their sickness reason from fatigue to something else so the authorities dont need to be informed....
Like i said rumours, but no smoke without fire i say.
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Imagine the rosters & working hours of UK train drivers being changed/worsened without consultation & agreement of the main union? Highly unlikely; same in France, Germany, Italy. It would not be enforceable. If they were imposed (see junior doctors) then the kick-back would be serious. So where was ECA while this fiasco was being developed in some darkened room deep in the bowls of Brussels? Where are they now? Why is ez the pathfinder in this campaign? What is the point of ECA if they are not banging the drum on this? It is an Europe wide issue for the industry. ECA is the Europe wide union/association for the industry. EASA is on the other side of the table for the Europe wide industry. Why are they not in discussion and agreement before this mess?
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Tubby / Gypsy simple question simple answer - thanks.
Lucky Strike - anti pilot views! My post mentioned ( hard working) pilots and gave information on meal breaks that EASA bought in and CAP371 ( from Douglas Bader days) didn't have. Yes I like to go fishing but if you take the bait doesn't mean to say I'm anti. I suspect a lot of posters know me might disagree with your comment.
As RHS states there are some UK AOC's who have worked hard with the CAA, Pilots, Union and are (trying) to mitigate some of not so nice EASA limits by having agreement, best practice, training etc. So at my AOC the impact was negligible, the transition smooth, the roster patterns in my view better ( for the crews not the airline) and back to my original comment sickness levels the same!
So accepting I might also have taken RHS's bait please don't tar all airlines with the same brush��
Lucky Strike - anti pilot views! My post mentioned ( hard working) pilots and gave information on meal breaks that EASA bought in and CAP371 ( from Douglas Bader days) didn't have. Yes I like to go fishing but if you take the bait doesn't mean to say I'm anti. I suspect a lot of posters know me might disagree with your comment.
As RHS states there are some UK AOC's who have worked hard with the CAA, Pilots, Union and are (trying) to mitigate some of not so nice EASA limits by having agreement, best practice, training etc. So at my AOC the impact was negligible, the transition smooth, the roster patterns in my view better ( for the crews not the airline) and back to my original comment sickness levels the same!
So accepting I might also have taken RHS's bait please don't tar all airlines with the same brush��
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The reasons why pilots don't report fatigue have been posted previously;
And one of those might be zero-hour self-employed pilots. No fly no pay.
And one of those might be zero-hour self-employed pilots. No fly no pay.
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Tubby / Gypsy simple question simple answer - thanks.
Lucky Strike - anti pilot views! My post mentioned ( hard working) pilots and gave information on meal breaks that EASA bought in and CAP371 ( from Douglas Bader days) didn't have. Yes I like to go fishing but if you take the bait doesn't mean to say I'm anti. I suspect a lot of posters know me might disagree with your comment.
As RHS states there are some UK AOC's who have worked hard with the CAA, Pilots, Union and are (trying) to mitigate some of not so nice EASA limits by having agreement, best practice, training etc. So at my AOC the impact was negligible, the transition smooth, the roster patterns in my view better ( for the crews not the airline) and back to my original comment sickness levels the same!
So accepting I might also have taken RHS's bait please don't tar all airlines with the same brush��
Lucky Strike - anti pilot views! My post mentioned ( hard working) pilots and gave information on meal breaks that EASA bought in and CAP371 ( from Douglas Bader days) didn't have. Yes I like to go fishing but if you take the bait doesn't mean to say I'm anti. I suspect a lot of posters know me might disagree with your comment.
As RHS states there are some UK AOC's who have worked hard with the CAA, Pilots, Union and are (trying) to mitigate some of not so nice EASA limits by having agreement, best practice, training etc. So at my AOC the impact was negligible, the transition smooth, the roster patterns in my view better ( for the crews not the airline) and back to my original comment sickness levels the same!
So accepting I might also have taken RHS's bait please don't tar all airlines with the same brush��
Lucky strike sums it up. Unless you have worked 7 straight days of Lates to earlies, in an enclosed, noise environment, with terrible food, at altitude, being irradiated, away from any means whatsoever of contacting your family if they need you, and the stress that brings, you can't really comment.
I have A LOT of respect for my colleagues in the office, and they do a difficult job to make an operation run, with limited resource. So this isn't a dig at ground staff.
I highly, highly doubt if you spoke to 90% of the crew at your AOC they would share the same views as you on EASA. Regardless to how you view it on paper, we are on the coal front.
Back to the thread however.
RHS - these comments are going too far to be believable
'... Unless you have worked 7 straight days of Lates to earlies, in an enclosed, noise environment, with terrible food, at altitude, being irradiated, away from any means whatsoever of contacting your family if they need you, and the stress that brings, you can't really comment.'
'worked 7 straight days of Lates to earlies' - Nobody is operating to these conditions - unless you can show me a roster to prove it?
'in an enclosed, noise environment, ... at altitude,' - isn't that what being a pilot is all about! which you knew when you chose the profession, did you not?
'with terrible food' - isn't most airline food terrible, besides you can bring your own if you're that concerned.
'away from any means whatsoever of contacting your family if they need you, - this is the same for the passengers and what you knew before you started. Once landed we live in the modern world so that's rubbish.
'... Unless you have worked 7 straight days of Lates to earlies, in an enclosed, noise environment, with terrible food, at altitude, being irradiated, away from any means whatsoever of contacting your family if they need you, and the stress that brings, you can't really comment.'
'worked 7 straight days of Lates to earlies' - Nobody is operating to these conditions - unless you can show me a roster to prove it?
'in an enclosed, noise environment, ... at altitude,' - isn't that what being a pilot is all about! which you knew when you chose the profession, did you not?
'with terrible food' - isn't most airline food terrible, besides you can bring your own if you're that concerned.
'away from any means whatsoever of contacting your family if they need you, - this is the same for the passengers and what you knew before you started. Once landed we live in the modern world so that's rubbish.
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Stiglet. Don't want to post my roster online. But would happily show you over a beer.
Yes I did. I signed up knowing that. It doesn't make it any easier. And I was making the point it's very different to an office job.
Of course we have modern means of communication. Passengers have the ability to cancel a flight, or get off on the other end. We fly regardless of your daughters first day at school, your mother awaiting test results etc. Passengers deal with it once in a blue moon. We deal with it once or twice a month. So not complete rubbish.
Crew food is what is supplied to me. I don't have a choice on it. Unlike an office worker. Who does have a choice.
I'm not knocking the job. I love it. I'm purely pointing out the fatiguing aspects of our job that other industries don't have.
Yes I did. I signed up knowing that. It doesn't make it any easier. And I was making the point it's very different to an office job.
Of course we have modern means of communication. Passengers have the ability to cancel a flight, or get off on the other end. We fly regardless of your daughters first day at school, your mother awaiting test results etc. Passengers deal with it once in a blue moon. We deal with it once or twice a month. So not complete rubbish.
Crew food is what is supplied to me. I don't have a choice on it. Unlike an office worker. Who does have a choice.
I'm not knocking the job. I love it. I'm purely pointing out the fatiguing aspects of our job that other industries don't have.
stigelt - I can see why you might have raised eyebrows (I'm struggling with the comms argument, but I'm old school), nevertheless:
True. Now you may find that acceptable if you're exposed to airline food on an occasional basis (FWIW I don't think it is), but if it's part of your diet every working day it becomes less acceptable and more of a health hazard. As RHS has pointed out unlike other jobs there's not really the option to go and dine at a healthier establishment.
For some who work long shorthaul shifts that would mean carrying possibly 2/3 DfT compliant meals every day through security...I'm sure some do it but again is it healthy long term? It would generate the sort of fatiguing hassle that RHS is on about.
'with terrible food' - isn't most airline food terrible,
besides you can bring your own if you're that concerned.
Last edited by wiggy; 16th Sep 2016 at 07:17.
EASA rules and flying rosters are getting really challenging now. However;
You do have a choice about food. It is easy enough to prepare a salad or a couple of rounds of sandwiches in a tupperware box the night before. (Or buy same from M&S). I make my own and add a small tub of nuts and a couple of pieces of fruit. Just don't bring drinks or yoghurts as most security gates have a problem with those.
'Being contactable by your family' : I suspect what is really meant here is being able to take days off at short notice to deal with family issues? In the BBC we used to have 2 emergency days off per year that could be invoked at very short notice - an idea for the Company Councils perhaps? A family that needs to constantly phone you to resolve day to day problems probably needs reorganising ! Having said that, child care can be a nightmare if both parents work.
If you are fatigued, for goodness sake put in a report. You don't have to refuse to fly. I often put a report in if I was fatigued at some point in the day - or even when driving home - and mitigated it by drinking coffee, or taking controlled rest etc. But we MUST put the reports in. The fatigue does not have to be caused by the company either. Neighbour's noisy barbecue/party is a legitimate reason if you were unable to sleep. The CAA should have a depository for us to report fatigue to them if we don't want to go through our company.
A Cabin manager once said to me "but if we put in a fatigue report it will show that we can't cope" EXACTLY !!
The CCs and Unions - of both pilots and cabin crews - should be much stronger over fatigue and rostering - but to do this they will need OUR support and votes. Why we have not had a general walk-out over this is beyond me. Have the unions and XAAs all been nobbled? We need unions more like those in the railways.
You do have a choice about food. It is easy enough to prepare a salad or a couple of rounds of sandwiches in a tupperware box the night before. (Or buy same from M&S). I make my own and add a small tub of nuts and a couple of pieces of fruit. Just don't bring drinks or yoghurts as most security gates have a problem with those.
'Being contactable by your family' : I suspect what is really meant here is being able to take days off at short notice to deal with family issues? In the BBC we used to have 2 emergency days off per year that could be invoked at very short notice - an idea for the Company Councils perhaps? A family that needs to constantly phone you to resolve day to day problems probably needs reorganising ! Having said that, child care can be a nightmare if both parents work.
If you are fatigued, for goodness sake put in a report. You don't have to refuse to fly. I often put a report in if I was fatigued at some point in the day - or even when driving home - and mitigated it by drinking coffee, or taking controlled rest etc. But we MUST put the reports in. The fatigue does not have to be caused by the company either. Neighbour's noisy barbecue/party is a legitimate reason if you were unable to sleep. The CAA should have a depository for us to report fatigue to them if we don't want to go through our company.
A Cabin manager once said to me "but if we put in a fatigue report it will show that we can't cope" EXACTLY !!
The CCs and Unions - of both pilots and cabin crews - should be much stronger over fatigue and rostering - but to do this they will need OUR support and votes. Why we have not had a general walk-out over this is beyond me. Have the unions and XAAs all been nobbled? We need unions more like those in the railways.
Last edited by Uplinker; 17th Sep 2016 at 13:05.
EASA rules and flying rosters are getting really challenging now. However;
You do have a choice about food. It is easy enough to prepare a salad or a couple of rounds of sandwiches in a tupperware box the night before. (Or buy same from M&S). I make my own and add a small tub of nuts and a couple of pieces of fruit.
You do have a choice about food. It is easy enough to prepare a salad or a couple of rounds of sandwiches in a tupperware box the night before. (Or buy same from M&S). I make my own and add a small tub of nuts and a couple of pieces of fruit.
The problems of crew food and healthy eating is a ongoing problem at at least one airline I know of.
Last edited by wiggy; 17th Sep 2016 at 11:24. Reason: Apologies Denti, just edited but I guess context still makes sense.
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Sorry but whilst that might work at an airline that only does " day trips" how do you think that would work at an airline that does night stops and/or multi day short haul tours, often with minimum rest on the nightstop?
Our CC aren't allowed checked bags on Shorthaul but I know some of our longhaul CC do the same on short longhaul trips, either for reasons of economy or because they don't trust the local food...
TBH if the suggestion is the only way crew can guarantee a sensible diet is to drag half of M&S around with them then the flight and cabin crew side of the industry is farked. Can you imagine the office staff being told to bring a suitcase of food into work (and that's not a pop at office staff, just a comparison)?
Anyhow I'll leave it there and wish our Company Council had been more robust in their response to the EASA regs... so back to flying hours and best of luck to the Easyjet pilots....
TBH if the suggestion is the only way crew can guarantee a sensible diet is to drag half of M&S around with them then the flight and cabin crew side of the industry is farked. Can you imagine the office staff being told to bring a suitcase of food into work (and that's not a pop at office staff, just a comparison)?
Anyhow I'll leave it there and wish our Company Council had been more robust in their response to the EASA regs... so back to flying hours and best of luck to the Easyjet pilots....