EASY_OUT
Join Date: May 2009
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To remain the right of EU-EU flights Easy Jet will have to get an AOC in the EU. ( Or use their Swiss AOC).
Join Date: Mar 2003
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You really must be joking. The UK got special deals and rebates for 40 years, and when finally some member states said "enough is enough", a few other member states like Germany agreed to fund the UK rebate (commonly konw as the "Thatcher rebate") on their own to keep the UK in. And this "more more more special treatment" is exactly the reason that quite a few EU member states inofficially do not really shed a tear now and are on course to play hardball with the UK when it comes to exit negotiations (and probably will be very accommodating to the Scots joining the EU just to show Englad & Wales a finger).
As for moving EZY to Switzerland, this really is no solution as this only grants limited traffic rights and the whole EU-Swiss treaty is not secure - should the Swiss decide to pull just one of the various bilaterals with the EU (e.g. free movement), this will also automatically put an end to the aviation treaty.
As for moving EZY to Switzerland, this really is no solution as this only grants limited traffic rights and the whole EU-Swiss treaty is not secure - should the Swiss decide to pull just one of the various bilaterals with the EU (e.g. free movement), this will also automatically put an end to the aviation treaty.
Foreigners who have worked in a country MAY inherit grandfather rights (possibly through the Vienna Treaty, but I'm no expert, I've just been looking at the internet). However this may require having worked for a certain time. It could depend upon factors such as labour shortages and the negotiating / lobbying power of airlines and pilots associations, etc.
If there is a shortage of pilots no problem. Ireland, for example, might not want to issue work permits to foreigners if there are lots of unemployed Irish pilots. If there is a shortage of pilots work permits will very likely be forthcoming (Swissair had no trouble employing foreigners when they couldn't find natives). If there is a sudden downturn they could of course withdraw those permits. (Interesting where seniority lists come in then.)
As a matter of interest if UK pilots could only fly to/from UK but 50% of such flying was done by UK pilots (no reason of course why this should be case, it could be 90%) who would gain most, UK or non UK pilots?
I suspect that applying for dual citizenship is available might be an advantage. Its interesting but complicated area that's interests me. I am a UK citizen but I was born in Germany. However, unlike some countries such as the USA & Ireland being born in Germany does not automatically qualify one for citizenship. (I don't speak the language so that could be a problem.) The MP for the constituency north of Heathrow, I believe his name is Johnson, was born in the US & I hear has been trying to renounce his US citizenship to avoid taxes - along with some at Cathay Pacific. My sister married a Frenchman of East European descent who was a permanent resident (but not citizen) of Switzerland and now lives there with right of residence. I must check what citizenships they have.
If there is a shortage of pilots no problem. Ireland, for example, might not want to issue work permits to foreigners if there are lots of unemployed Irish pilots. If there is a shortage of pilots work permits will very likely be forthcoming (Swissair had no trouble employing foreigners when they couldn't find natives). If there is a sudden downturn they could of course withdraw those permits. (Interesting where seniority lists come in then.)
As a matter of interest if UK pilots could only fly to/from UK but 50% of such flying was done by UK pilots (no reason of course why this should be case, it could be 90%) who would gain most, UK or non UK pilots?
I suspect that applying for dual citizenship is available might be an advantage. Its interesting but complicated area that's interests me. I am a UK citizen but I was born in Germany. However, unlike some countries such as the USA & Ireland being born in Germany does not automatically qualify one for citizenship. (I don't speak the language so that could be a problem.) The MP for the constituency north of Heathrow, I believe his name is Johnson, was born in the US & I hear has been trying to renounce his US citizenship to avoid taxes - along with some at Cathay Pacific. My sister married a Frenchman of East European descent who was a permanent resident (but not citizen) of Switzerland and now lives there with right of residence. I must check what citizenships they have.
Last edited by Peter47; 25th Jun 2016 at 19:32.
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Switzerland was not an EU state, so I don't know what their rules were. My understanding is that in EU members states the principle of Community preference applies, i.e. third country skilled labour can only be hired if labour demand cannot be met with workers from other EU member states.
Just to throw a scenario into the mixer:
Going back to the 1980s, prior to the liberalisation of the European aviation market, routes were dictated based on bilateral relations between different states. It allowed the big players, such as British Airways, to rule the roost in the UK airline market. It enabled, due to a lack of competition on key routes, to charge excessively high fares.
When the likes of easyJet and Ryanair started their hyper-aggressive expansions, national carriers became squeezed out on short haul and now struggle to compete and turn a profit. Passengers less interest in service and quality, instead just wanting to get from A to B in the shortest and cheapest way.
I work for a UK airline, which is usually the 2nd or 3rd player on most, if not all routes. Could we go back to a situation where certain governments could prevent more than 1-2 non-EU carriers to operate a certain route, to enhance the chances of their home carriers and as such protecting their jobs? By EU law, a state cannot 'sponsor' an airline - this would be an indirect way to help their residents.
Further afield, there are restrictions between flying to places like Rio de Janeiro and Moscow; the latter which easyJet at one time were able to operate at the expense of Virgin Atlantic, but only up to double daily. The former is an extremely expensive route in relative terms, as there is no open skies agreement, to my knowledge, between Brazil and the UK, as such preventing competition.
The losers are passengers, who will see an increase in fares and employees, as Ts & Cs will be further stretched.
Going back to the 1980s, prior to the liberalisation of the European aviation market, routes were dictated based on bilateral relations between different states. It allowed the big players, such as British Airways, to rule the roost in the UK airline market. It enabled, due to a lack of competition on key routes, to charge excessively high fares.
When the likes of easyJet and Ryanair started their hyper-aggressive expansions, national carriers became squeezed out on short haul and now struggle to compete and turn a profit. Passengers less interest in service and quality, instead just wanting to get from A to B in the shortest and cheapest way.
I work for a UK airline, which is usually the 2nd or 3rd player on most, if not all routes. Could we go back to a situation where certain governments could prevent more than 1-2 non-EU carriers to operate a certain route, to enhance the chances of their home carriers and as such protecting their jobs? By EU law, a state cannot 'sponsor' an airline - this would be an indirect way to help their residents.
Further afield, there are restrictions between flying to places like Rio de Janeiro and Moscow; the latter which easyJet at one time were able to operate at the expense of Virgin Atlantic, but only up to double daily. The former is an extremely expensive route in relative terms, as there is no open skies agreement, to my knowledge, between Brazil and the UK, as such preventing competition.
The losers are passengers, who will see an increase in fares and employees, as Ts & Cs will be further stretched.
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From watching the European ministers press conference yesterday, my understanding was that, against common sense, the UK had to leave the EU and all of its associated institutions before we could start trade negotiations. The ramifications of that are that the European legal system and restrictions will apply against all British companies operating in Europe for the period between leaving the EU and completing negotiations. During this period Easyjet and British crew will suffer. The Easyjet operation in Milan will have to close for a period. Probably the re-opening will be under the 51% ownership rules. This would mean corporate taxes would be paid outside the UK. This will apply to many different companies I think the British treasury will have a large shortfall in revenue. Interest rates that the UK pays on its national debt are also going up as credit ratings are cut. The UK will not keep its place as the 5th Biggest economy in the World.
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To be correct
We have not yet told them we are leaving - so EU rules still apply
Once we do there if a 2 year negotiation period - EU rules still apply
After 2 years we're out - if there is no finalised deal we're back to WTO rules BUT there may be certain grandfather rights with individual states (as there are apparently on fishing). Effectively we'd be rewinding the clock to the early 80's with the original EU members . God knows where we'd stand with later joiners such as Spain & Romania
Better ask Boris & Farage.............
We have not yet told them we are leaving - so EU rules still apply
Once we do there if a 2 year negotiation period - EU rules still apply
After 2 years we're out - if there is no finalised deal we're back to WTO rules BUT there may be certain grandfather rights with individual states (as there are apparently on fishing). Effectively we'd be rewinding the clock to the early 80's with the original EU members . God knows where we'd stand with later joiners such as Spain & Romania
Better ask Boris & Farage.............
Of course if Scotland were to become independent within the EU easyjet could just move north. probably lots of crew have some Scottish connection and could then claim dual nationality and work anywhere in the EU.
The trouble just now is that NO ONE know what the F**K is gong to happen. From the most powerful politician right down to the road sweeper.
The trouble just now is that NO ONE know what the F**K is gong to happen. From the most powerful politician right down to the road sweeper.
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scr1- You are correct.
One thing that we do know is that there is no system in Spain or Italy to issue large numbers of work permits and no incentive to create a system.
Even if they did want to create a work permit system (which they don't) it would take a very long time and then when created it would be very bureaucratic.
There is absolutely no possibility for British crew members based in those countries to stay.
On the other hand Britain will set up an efficient work permit system for those European workers currently in the UK because it was a British decision to leave the EU.
One thing that we do know is that there is no system in Spain or Italy to issue large numbers of work permits and no incentive to create a system.
Even if they did want to create a work permit system (which they don't) it would take a very long time and then when created it would be very bureaucratic.
There is absolutely no possibility for British crew members based in those countries to stay.
On the other hand Britain will set up an efficient work permit system for those European workers currently in the UK because it was a British decision to leave the EU.
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Many British airlines employ many European pilots. British Airways being a prime example. Should either side seek to play 'hard ball' there will be many casualties on both sides.
That is in nobody's best interests!
An absolute minimum of two years is available to find acceptable answers. This is day three, and the clock hasn't even started yet!
That is in nobody's best interests!
An absolute minimum of two years is available to find acceptable answers. This is day three, and the clock hasn't even started yet!
One thing that we do know is that there is no system in Spain or Italy to issue large numbers of work permits and no incentive to create a system.
Even if they did want to create a work permit system (which they don't) it would take a very long time and then when created it would be very bureaucratic.
There is absolutely no possibility for British crew members based in those countries to stay.
Even if they did want to create a work permit system (which they don't) it would take a very long time and then when created it would be very bureaucratic.
There is absolutely no possibility for British crew members based in those countries to stay.
Then ... Surely there must be some non-EU nationals working legally in Spain or Italy right now? In which case they must have some kind of work permit system?
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it is definitely a risk primarily for EZY, since as has been said they will need a new EU based company that is 51% owned within the EU. I don't have access to the domicile breakdown of their existing shareholders, but if when the UK ones are added to the other non-EU shareholders it comes to more than 50% they have an issue.
TUI AG likewise have a similar issue, since 15% is a Russian shareholder (so non-EU) 6% are private investors (mostly the Directors & employees of former TUI Travel PLC so UK) then 76% are institutional shareholders (primarily coming from the TUI Travel PLC days so heavily UK biased)
TUI AG likewise have a similar issue, since 15% is a Russian shareholder (so non-EU) 6% are private investors (mostly the Directors & employees of former TUI Travel PLC so UK) then 76% are institutional shareholders (primarily coming from the TUI Travel PLC days so heavily UK biased)
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EZY in talks with several EU aviation authorities about relocating their company HQ to another EU state and obtaining an AOC according to Sky News.
http://news.sky.com/story/1720169/easyjet-opens-talks-over-post-brexit-hq-move
http://news.sky.com/story/1720169/easyjet-opens-talks-over-post-brexit-hq-move