KoreanAir ATC violation
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: N/A
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Phileas Fogg.....lets just clear that one up. Not in the history of professional aviation has ATC ever been "in charge" of an aeroplane.
Every single ATC instruction whatever it may be is OPTIONAL for the Captain who is the only person legally in charge of an aircraft.
Every single ATC instruction whatever it may be is OPTIONAL for the Captain who is the only person legally in charge of an aircraft.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: USA
Age: 66
Posts: 2,183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Teamwork.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: London
Age: 59
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Phileas Fogg.....lets just clear that one up. Not in the history of professional aviation has ATC ever been "in charge" of an aeroplane.
Every single ATC instruction whatever it may be is OPTIONAL for the Captain who is the only person legally in charge of an aircraft.
Every single ATC instruction whatever it may be is OPTIONAL for the Captain who is the only person legally in charge of an aircraft.
"Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised."
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.123
Gender Faculty Specialist
And as has been stated above...better to adhere to the instructions of someone with the FULL knowledge of what is occurring on the maneuvering area and sort it out later. ATC KNOWS that you are in command. I know that the AIRFIELD is mine and you would be bloody foolish to disregard my instructions.
Teamwork.
Teamwork.
Would I still be foolish if I didn't stop above V1 when you ask me to?
Teamwork - you do the strategy, I'll do the tactics.
19 HR delay. Ridiculous on the part of SQ.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: sfo
Age: 70
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
19 HR delay. Ridiculous on the part of SQ.
Edit to say that there may have been some ICN-originating pax, have no idea how many
Last edited by sb_sfo; 15th May 2016 at 16:18. Reason: clarity
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: On SBY next to my phone
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Damage assessment, source and supply possibly 12 new wheels, transport to Korea, ( 6 hours), and fix, 19 hours sounds fair to me, what is your gripe Geebz?
As a pilot, if the ATC tells me to stop immediately, I can count on the reason being a runway incursion.
With speeds of up to 300 feet per second, a p1ss1ng contest of who's in charge would be the last thing on my mind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: N/A
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
P1ss1ng contest ? I haven't for 1 second suggested it was wrong to follow ATC instruction in this case. My issue is the thought that some ATC's think they are in charge of aircraft. The point is that its always a choice for the Captain to follow ATC or not.
EPPY you must be a career FO......By international law the Captain has sole responsibility for the safety of the aircraft period.
As per 14 CFR 91.123....... You have to be kidding.. So when ATC make a mistake and try and vector you into a mountain after departure because they forgot about a runway change, your just going to do what they say ??? When ATC use your callsign by mistake your just going to follow14 CFR 91.123 ??
A concerning lack of self preservation.
EPPY you must be a career FO......By international law the Captain has sole responsibility for the safety of the aircraft period.
As per 14 CFR 91.123....... You have to be kidding.. So when ATC make a mistake and try and vector you into a mountain after departure because they forgot about a runway change, your just going to do what they say ??? When ATC use your callsign by mistake your just going to follow14 CFR 91.123 ??
A concerning lack of self preservation.
Last edited by 8che; 16th May 2016 at 20:34.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 929
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
.By international law the Captain has sole responsibility for the safety of the aircraft period.
At the end of the day, all I want is to get to my days off without having to fill out paperwork and get the whole "tea no biscuits" chat, and I want to do everything in my power to help pilots do the same.
We all eff up, whether it be something relatively small like giving the wrong freq and spotting it in the read back-hear back or whatever to something larger. Thankfully one side of the conversation or the person plugged in next to me or other pilot up there with you spots our mistakes more often than not. We watch each other's backs, that's why it works.
We all eff up, whether it be something relatively small like giving the wrong freq and spotting it in the read back-hear back or whatever to something larger. Thankfully one side of the conversation or the person plugged in next to me or other pilot up there with you spots our mistakes more often than not. We watch each other's backs, that's why it works.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cloud 9
Posts: 2,948
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Phileas Fogg.....lets just clear that one up. Not in the history of professional aviation has ATC ever been "in charge" of an aeroplane.
Every single ATC instruction whatever it may be is OPTIONAL for the Captain who is the only person legally in charge of an aircraft.
Every single ATC instruction whatever it may be is OPTIONAL for the Captain who is the only person legally in charge of an aircraft.
It's some 37 years since I did ATC, so I don't take it personally any longer, but let's just make this clear 'bche' ... If there is an aircraft already on the active runway and I instruct you to perform a 'go around' then you do the damn hell as I tell you or you can foxtrot oscar to some type of Ryanair airfield that might accept your "I am god" type attitude!
Amen
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: N/A
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well its been 24 hours since I last commanded a wide body jet and you clearly are taking it personally, you can paint a warped picture of god like attitudes if you wish too but its a simple fact of international law and a fundamental basis of self preservation that the guy sat in the cockpit has the final say. There is only one person in command of an aeroplane and unlike ATC whatever decision the Captain takes he/she literally lives or dies by that decision.
Bula's post 14 says it all.
The fact you might get upset by our choice to follow instruction or not is frankly irrelevant to our decision making process and irrelevant to the law.
Yes we are team and both ATC and pilots get things wrong and hopefully catch each others mistakes but lets be crystal clear the buck always stops with the Captain both on a legal and mortal basis. Ultimately Captains have to sit down and justify every decision/action they take....if were lucky enough to be still be alive.
Bula's post 14 says it all.
The fact you might get upset by our choice to follow instruction or not is frankly irrelevant to our decision making process and irrelevant to the law.
Yes we are team and both ATC and pilots get things wrong and hopefully catch each others mistakes but lets be crystal clear the buck always stops with the Captain both on a legal and mortal basis. Ultimately Captains have to sit down and justify every decision/action they take....if were lucky enough to be still be alive.
Last edited by 8che; 18th May 2016 at 17:04.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Manchester
Age: 45
Posts: 615
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is daft. It is teamwork. I don't know why the Skygods are at it. Who legally puts their legal risk on the line when they sign a DGR check/NOTOC/Loadsheet etc. Best pilots I know are the ones who say "What do you think"
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cloud 9
Posts: 2,948
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This reminds me of the story of a Birdseed B747 on approach to LHR.
ATC had, more than once, asked the B747 to reduce it's speed and the B747 had complied, when ATC once more asked the B747 to reduce it's speed the somewhat pompous reply came back, something to the effect, "My dear chap, are you aware of the stalling speed of a B747?" ... As quick as anything the controller replied "No sir, but if you ask your First Officer I'm sure that he'll be able to tell you"
ATC had, more than once, asked the B747 to reduce it's speed and the B747 had complied, when ATC once more asked the B747 to reduce it's speed the somewhat pompous reply came back, something to the effect, "My dear chap, are you aware of the stalling speed of a B747?" ... As quick as anything the controller replied "No sir, but if you ask your First Officer I'm sure that he'll be able to tell you"
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Sweden
Age: 47
Posts: 443
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please everybody. I am just sitting behind you. Maybe I am crammed in the aisle seat. I have no idea what is going on on the runway, I am just thinking of my nice vacation, visiting a dear friend. I have listened to your safety instructions and put my seat belt on. In the cupboard above my head lays a gift I made in pottery class, glazed in royal blue.
So have this in mind, if ATC hollers at you to STOP! RIGHT! NOW!
That is not the time, nor the place to rattle around how many stripes you have on your shoulders. I trust you to stop. I trust you to save my life. I know the dangers of runway collisions, but I trust you to adhere to the ATC emergency call. Because I want to visit my friend. And I am sure you as a pilot have your own friends you want to visit.
I don't care about your stripes. I care about my life, and yours - because you are the one responsible for mine in this situation. So just stop the plane if possible (have you reached V1 just do what's necessary to avoid trouble). Please. I beg you.
So have this in mind, if ATC hollers at you to STOP! RIGHT! NOW!
That is not the time, nor the place to rattle around how many stripes you have on your shoulders. I trust you to stop. I trust you to save my life. I know the dangers of runway collisions, but I trust you to adhere to the ATC emergency call. Because I want to visit my friend. And I am sure you as a pilot have your own friends you want to visit.
I don't care about your stripes. I care about my life, and yours - because you are the one responsible for mine in this situation. So just stop the plane if possible (have you reached V1 just do what's necessary to avoid trouble). Please. I beg you.
Last edited by MrSnuggles; 23rd May 2016 at 12:25. Reason: because spelling that's why!
Seriously, I find it hard to fathom a reason why one would not stop if ATC say "stop stop stop"? Above V1 would just about be it, technical malfunction with a go decision, tyre burst with no engine abnormal approaching V1.
I can quite honestly say during the task off roll I'm fairly task saturated , so to be able to perceive all elements to maintain complete airfield situational awareness is sometimes just not possible. I know my limits, though we sometimes need a little reminder that we are there when we reach them.
As PIC, my job is safety, which includes using all available resources. ATC being very high on the input level.
Those who are flouting the SkyGod concept need to realise the above, that the PIC has complete responsibility. In saying that, one would be selling tickets on themselves to not stop without true safety reasons that ATC may not be aware of.
I can quite honestly say during the task off roll I'm fairly task saturated , so to be able to perceive all elements to maintain complete airfield situational awareness is sometimes just not possible. I know my limits, though we sometimes need a little reminder that we are there when we reach them.
As PIC, my job is safety, which includes using all available resources. ATC being very high on the input level.
Those who are flouting the SkyGod concept need to realise the above, that the PIC has complete responsibility. In saying that, one would be selling tickets on themselves to not stop without true safety reasons that ATC may not be aware of.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Up there
Posts: 202
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Incident: Korean A332 at Seoul on May 5th 2016, runway incursion forces SQ-16 to reject takeoff
QAR data indicates that the ground speed at the time of the RTO was 139kts (CAS 146kts). Reverse thrust was not used during the maneuver as in the crew’s opinion, the rate of deceleration was high and there was sufficient runway remaining.
