Families of Germanwings victims sue US flight school
Maybe a meeting with a psychologist every 2-3 years should be part of the class one medical. Also allowing full access to your medical records by the relevant CAA.
de minimus non curat lex
In the UK, one of the items the AME assesses is your mental state, not that they are specialists in that discipline.
And as part of the UK process, you agree that your GP can be contacted if necessary.
The process mainly relies upon the pilot being honest when filling out the medical form at the AME examination.
As reported, the BA recruitment process is far from perfect and that is over a number of days. So just how the AME is meant to spot a mental health problem,well hidden, in an hour would be difficult.
A significant period of time is necessary to penetrate the mask and reveal their true colours. Probably the period of full time flying training would be ideal as any other.
So ATOs are, as we speak, now developing another item to report on monthly for the under pressure instructors to battle through. And of course appropriate training will be given to identify the signs
And as part of the UK process, you agree that your GP can be contacted if necessary.
The process mainly relies upon the pilot being honest when filling out the medical form at the AME examination.
As reported, the BA recruitment process is far from perfect and that is over a number of days. So just how the AME is meant to spot a mental health problem,well hidden, in an hour would be difficult.
A significant period of time is necessary to penetrate the mask and reveal their true colours. Probably the period of full time flying training would be ideal as any other.
So ATOs are, as we speak, now developing another item to report on monthly for the under pressure instructors to battle through. And of course appropriate training will be given to identify the signs
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This was an international flight and the Montreal Convention 1999 (and the European Regulation that implements it in all EU Member states) is applicable and air carriers are strictly liable for proven damages up to 100,000 special drawing rights (SDR).
'Strictly liable means that the airline accepts liability (no need to go to court and prove their liability).
So these guys think they can get more. Assuming the lawyers will get 30% that means they need to secure more than 130,000 SDR per passenger in order for the plaintiffs to improve on what the Convention gives them.
'Strictly liable means that the airline accepts liability (no need to go to court and prove their liability).
So these guys think they can get more. Assuming the lawyers will get 30% that means they need to secure more than 130,000 SDR per passenger in order for the plaintiffs to improve on what the Convention gives them.
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"Strictly liable" means, I think, that you are sure to get about $150,000 US in any case, no lawyer needed. That would imply that you would only involve a no-win, no-fee lawyer when looking for a payout in excess of about $215,000, since 70% of that would be about $150,000, putting you back where you started.
For 130,000 SDR the number would be about 186,000.
(You need to divide X by seven and then multiply the result by ten to get the amount needed to yield X when thirty percent is deducted from it; it's more than the $195,000 or 169,000 SDR that you might first guess at.)
For 130,000 SDR the number would be about 186,000.
(You need to divide X by seven and then multiply the result by ten to get the amount needed to yield X when thirty percent is deducted from it; it's more than the $195,000 or 169,000 SDR that you might first guess at.)
Also allowing full access to your medical records by the relevant CAA.
Not the safest option IMHO.
That may be true, but neither is the current situation. As has been proved by the accident that caused this discussion.
The problem is, how do you find out about a problem that someone is trying to hide?
Answers on a post card please!
The problem is, how do you find out about a problem that someone is trying to hide?
Answers on a post card please!
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Looked at in a slightly different way, say you were a driving instructor who had some "emo" teen on your hands, one of those with the black fingernail polish and the self-harm scars, when you might guess that his strongest secret wish was to get his license and then drive his car into a crowd of people, just going by his demeanor and all. Should you respect his right to privacy, say nothing, and help him get his license as a matter of routine, and then not expect to be sued for that when mayhem ensues?
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So ATOs are, as we speak, now developing another item to report on monthly for the under pressure instructors to battle through. And of course appropriate training will be given to identify the signs
EASA are currently consulting with EU States on the issuance of new Operational Directives concerning a number of the 4U Taskforce recommendations including Psychological and psychiatric evaluation of applicants for Class 1 medical certificates and the Psychological evaluation of flight crew by CAT operators for implementation in the very near future, but when are they going to recognise the part the ATO plays - pre-training and pre-employment evaluation are all well and good but if a proper reporting, review process and mechanism exists where a student flagged as having 'non-technical' issues can be chopped from training instead of simply moved to another instructor as happens too frequently for commercial reasons, and if instructors, particularly at those ATO's operating outside of EU Member States were properly supervised and came under greater oversight through either EASA or the appropriate NAA in addition to their own national requirements (e.g. FAA) from a standardisation perspective (i.e. during annual approval inspections, instructors were selected randomly for sampling by the NAA rather than being provided by the school management based on known ability), I for one would be more satisfied that appropriate checks and measures were in place to help identify another potential Andreas Lubitz.
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Lubitz didn't come straight out of flight school to crash, he was flying the line with Germanwings for about 18 months before the crash. This time factor in itself would distance the flight school's implied responsibility for psychological snafus, if ever noticed & addressed, during his training. Ultimate medical fitness for flight rests with the German licensing authorities and the employer. Suggesting that this flight school was responsible for the crash 18 months after graduation, is like blaming a bartender for last week's hangover.
What's bizarre is the assumption by plaintiffs that a U.S. court would somehow embrace jurisdiction of this deliberate crash in a foreign country, by a foreign crew, operating a foreign manufactured & registered jet, by a foreign airline.
What's bizarre is the assumption by plaintiffs that a U.S. court would somehow embrace jurisdiction of this deliberate crash in a foreign country, by a foreign crew, operating a foreign manufactured & registered jet, by a foreign airline.
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What's somewhat plausible is the assumption by plaintiffs that a U.S. court might somehow embrace jurisdiction of this deliberate crash in a foreign country, by a foreign crewmember trained by an American flight school, operating a foreign manufactured & registered jet, by a foreign airline.
Hey, it never hurts to ask!
Hey, it never hurts to ask!
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It is my experience as a flight instructor that the medical certificate is a requirement in addition to the license. It was not my responsibility to question the medical certificate.
If a student showed weird characteristics, it became a discussion between the CFI and instructors to determine how to treat this student. In some cases we refused to train him/her any further. So, this leads me to question the legality of going after a flight training center.
If a student showed weird characteristics, it became a discussion between the CFI and instructors to determine how to treat this student. In some cases we refused to train him/her any further. So, this leads me to question the legality of going after a flight training center.
We are all very sorry for the families, but this is just "money grabbing" & hitting out in whichever direction is possibly going to result in a financial reward, l think.
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I cried all the way to the bank ....
That is what Liberace said about being picked on for his terrible style of performing. I am sure that the American lawyers working on this case will have to live with the shame of being called "ambulance-chasers" in somewhat the same way.
The thing is that in the case of Lubitz he had to take a ten-month break because of severe depression, so that his illness was well known to Lufthansa's school. Too, there was that problem getting him his FAA Student Pilot License, the one off the front of his FAA Form 8500, the medical form. I assume that the school passing him along as a fit candidate for work as an FO despite his illness will be the main issue, since the FAA can not be sued for having passed Lubitz as fit to train as a Student Pilot.
It's an impossible question to answer, but how would the FAA have reacted to the renewal of Lubitz' Third Class, and would they ever have agreed to him getting a First Class, given his medical history? As it was, he went through the American flight medical certification process just once, and at the lowest level possible.
The thing is that in the case of Lubitz he had to take a ten-month break because of severe depression, so that his illness was well known to Lufthansa's school. Too, there was that problem getting him his FAA Student Pilot License, the one off the front of his FAA Form 8500, the medical form. I assume that the school passing him along as a fit candidate for work as an FO despite his illness will be the main issue, since the FAA can not be sued for having passed Lubitz as fit to train as a Student Pilot.
It's an impossible question to answer, but how would the FAA have reacted to the renewal of Lubitz' Third Class, and would they ever have agreed to him getting a First Class, given his medical history? As it was, he went through the American flight medical certification process just once, and at the lowest level possible.
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I assume that the school passing him along as a fit candidate for work as an FO despite his illness will be the main issue,
It will be interesting to see if ATCA had any information about the medical status of Lubitz beyond him having an unrestricted FAA class 3 medical, or if it didn't. There should be a papertrail if they did, but it is not a sure thing at all.
It's an impossible question to answer, but how would the FAA have reacted to the renewal of Lubitz' Third Class, and would they ever have agreed to him getting a First Class, given his medical history? As it was, he went through the American flight medical certification process just once, and at the lowest level possible.
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"[Lubitz] never applied for a higher medical class; he never needed to do that and why would he? Getting the FAA class 3 medical is the normal case for this type of flight training, and there is no reason to get more (and pay more) if one plans to work in Europe as a pilot."
It might be normal for that particular school, but I can assure you that anyone who is at all serious about a professional career in the States will start with an FAA Class One medical just to get that Student Pilot's license, as I did. Getting a Class One, not a Class Three " ... is the normal case for this type of flight training .... "
You only get a Student Pilot license out of the exercise, true, but you know then that you do not have some condition that will bar you from later exercising the privileges of a professional license requiring a Class One. The small difference in price is not a factor for someone who is going to be taking up a course of training that will take years, since it gives assurance that all that hard work and time spent should pay off in the end with a job as a pilot.
Looked at in a certain way, for the FAA to say "Okay, here's your Class Three to fly as a student pilot," and to leave it at that is "passing the buck," leaving it up to the LBA to have approved Lubitz for a Class One despite his history of severe depression. There the FAA was ignoring the obvious end goal, Lubitz holding a Class One to act as a professional pilot, to merely look at the presumably lower FAA requirements for a Class Three to act as a student pilot.
One prerequisite for doing the course for the ATPL writtens at London Met about ten years ago was holding a valid Class One medical, including a medical examination from the British CAA itself, not just from a normal medical examiner, if I remember that correctly. Why did they require me to hold a Class One medical, just to sit in a classroom to study for some writtens?
We might not be having this discussion if Lubitz had been required to get an FAA Class One before going solo in the States. Who knows?
It might be normal for that particular school, but I can assure you that anyone who is at all serious about a professional career in the States will start with an FAA Class One medical just to get that Student Pilot's license, as I did. Getting a Class One, not a Class Three " ... is the normal case for this type of flight training .... "
You only get a Student Pilot license out of the exercise, true, but you know then that you do not have some condition that will bar you from later exercising the privileges of a professional license requiring a Class One. The small difference in price is not a factor for someone who is going to be taking up a course of training that will take years, since it gives assurance that all that hard work and time spent should pay off in the end with a job as a pilot.
Looked at in a certain way, for the FAA to say "Okay, here's your Class Three to fly as a student pilot," and to leave it at that is "passing the buck," leaving it up to the LBA to have approved Lubitz for a Class One despite his history of severe depression. There the FAA was ignoring the obvious end goal, Lubitz holding a Class One to act as a professional pilot, to merely look at the presumably lower FAA requirements for a Class Three to act as a student pilot.
One prerequisite for doing the course for the ATPL writtens at London Met about ten years ago was holding a valid Class One medical, including a medical examination from the British CAA itself, not just from a normal medical examiner, if I remember that correctly. Why did they require me to hold a Class One medical, just to sit in a classroom to study for some writtens?
We might not be having this discussion if Lubitz had been required to get an FAA Class One before going solo in the States. Who knows?
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It might be normal for that particular school, but I can assure you that anyone who is at all serious about a professional career in the States will start with an FAA Class One medical just to get that Student Pilot's license, as I did. Getting a Class One, not a Class Three " ... is the normal case for this type of flight training .... "
What you say is most probably true for someone training in the US to work there. It is not for europeans doing some of their training in the US to work in Europe. The FAA didn't pass the buck, it was not FAA training to begin with, the FAA does not know MPL training for starters (which by the way, is only completed at the end of the LIFUS phase, in this case on A320). And he held a european class 1 medical after all.
The europeans just take advantage of the low costs in the US compared to europe, same as a lot of their other companies do as well.
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My point is, why not require that your European student also get a Class One medical from the FAA? By that sort of logic, Lubitz, needing only a Class Three from the European authorities as a student ... why require him to have a Class One instead?
Come to that, why should the FAA require another medical of someone who holds a valid LBA medical? They accept the foreign license, so why not accept the foreign medical?
Requiring a student to have a Class One medical instead of the bare minimum Class Three would be taking a "belt and braces" approach, adding one more check for a candidate for a professional career as a pilot.
If this suit goes ahead in the States, I would expect this issue to come up. It will be interesting to see if it does.
If you have obtained a foreign license, then you may have noticed how you end up duplicating a lot of the checks and tests that you have already been put through by your home authority, when that higher class of medical would simply be one more of those.
It would be interesting to know if the school now requires an FAA Class One for its student pilots, as one more way of trying to catch the next Lubitz before he gets too far in the system.
Come to that, why should the FAA require another medical of someone who holds a valid LBA medical? They accept the foreign license, so why not accept the foreign medical?
Requiring a student to have a Class One medical instead of the bare minimum Class Three would be taking a "belt and braces" approach, adding one more check for a candidate for a professional career as a pilot.
If this suit goes ahead in the States, I would expect this issue to come up. It will be interesting to see if it does.
If you have obtained a foreign license, then you may have noticed how you end up duplicating a lot of the checks and tests that you have already been put through by your home authority, when that higher class of medical would simply be one more of those.
It would be interesting to know if the school now requires an FAA Class One for its student pilots, as one more way of trying to catch the next Lubitz before he gets too far in the system.
