AA FO Fails Breathalyzer, Arrested
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This guy will have had his career ruined finished Caput. There was an equal incident at Leeds UK where the pilot turned up unsteady on his feet and was found to be way over the limit.
All alcohol related incidents are not Alcoholic s but maybe a pilot with a personal problem or doing something he regrets the night before as a one off.
The very thought that they had to blow into a machine going airside would have saved both pilots their careers so its not just for passengers being flown by someone unfit its also about getting pilots to think twice and call in Sick
All alcohol related incidents are not Alcoholic s but maybe a pilot with a personal problem or doing something he regrets the night before as a one off.
The very thought that they had to blow into a machine going airside would have saved both pilots their careers so its not just for passengers being flown by someone unfit its also about getting pilots to think twice and call in Sick
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Are we not overblowing this thing a little in thirty years of professional avation I have seen one person turn up for a flight under the influence. He did not get to fly due to crew action.
The installation in crew rooms across the globe of breath test machines would be very poor value for money.
The money would be far better spent on addressing the fatiuge issue.
The installation in crew rooms across the globe of breath test machines would be very poor value for money.
The money would be far better spent on addressing the fatiuge issue.
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Pilots can address the fatigue issue in the same way they can address the alchohol issue. Refuse to fly when alchohol or fatigue impaired and refuse to fly with someone that is.
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Two birds with one stone ....
"Pilots can address the fatigue issue in the same way they can address the alcohol issue. Refuse to fly when alcohol or fatigue impaired and refuse to fly with someone that is."
Alcohol impairment, okay, but fatigue? That's highly subjective, so that saying that your schedule, or that cheap motel you were staying in, left you too fatigued to operate ... that might solve another problem instead: the lack of job opportunities, when Management would find someone else who was perfectly happy to take on that very same schedule that you just found yourself unable to cope with.
It seems like yesterday that our genius Management had found a double-wide house trailer for us to use on our overnights in beautiful Columbia, South Carolina. It was winter then, when even South Carolina has cold weather, down around freezing, and this thing had no real insulation and a very noisy warm-air heating system.
Every five minutes or so the furnace would come on and put the temperature up to about 20º C, when it would then shut off. Then the temperature inside would plummet to match the temperature outside. It took about ten minutes for that until the noisy furnace came on again ... cycling all night long and leaving both of us unable to sleep. When we complained about that to Management they got on our case about being unreasonable ingrates, since nobody else had complained. Next time we took our sleeping bags and slept without the furnace; I have no idea how the other crews managed.
Soon enough we were invited to take our ungrateful selves down the road, when that sent a message to me.
Alcohol impairment, okay, but fatigue? That's highly subjective, so that saying that your schedule, or that cheap motel you were staying in, left you too fatigued to operate ... that might solve another problem instead: the lack of job opportunities, when Management would find someone else who was perfectly happy to take on that very same schedule that you just found yourself unable to cope with.
It seems like yesterday that our genius Management had found a double-wide house trailer for us to use on our overnights in beautiful Columbia, South Carolina. It was winter then, when even South Carolina has cold weather, down around freezing, and this thing had no real insulation and a very noisy warm-air heating system.
Every five minutes or so the furnace would come on and put the temperature up to about 20º C, when it would then shut off. Then the temperature inside would plummet to match the temperature outside. It took about ten minutes for that until the noisy furnace came on again ... cycling all night long and leaving both of us unable to sleep. When we complained about that to Management they got on our case about being unreasonable ingrates, since nobody else had complained. Next time we took our sleeping bags and slept without the furnace; I have no idea how the other crews managed.
Soon enough we were invited to take our ungrateful selves down the road, when that sent a message to me.
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I do not know if there are any figures available other than prosecutions on the likely numbers of pilots who probably have flown while slightly over limit?
I am sure most of us at some time in the past have driven home from a pub or party thinking that they were probably under and would risk it.
I am sure if there was a police car parked at the entrance to the pub no one would get into that car if there was any doubt at all.
IT could be the case of doing something stupid the night before rather than an alcoholic with a drinking problem but this something stupid will ruin your career and reputation
obviously a seriously drunk pilot will be noticed by other crew or security but those just over probably won't
Pilots are not super Gods and due to the nature of their jobs are probably more likely to suffer personal problems and as posted Fatigue and stress is more likely to create a situation where a one off indiscretion could have disastrous results for the pilot and possibly safety of the aircraft
I am sure most of us at some time in the past have driven home from a pub or party thinking that they were probably under and would risk it.
I am sure if there was a police car parked at the entrance to the pub no one would get into that car if there was any doubt at all.
IT could be the case of doing something stupid the night before rather than an alcoholic with a drinking problem but this something stupid will ruin your career and reputation
obviously a seriously drunk pilot will be noticed by other crew or security but those just over probably won't
Pilots are not super Gods and due to the nature of their jobs are probably more likely to suffer personal problems and as posted Fatigue and stress is more likely to create a situation where a one off indiscretion could have disastrous results for the pilot and possibly safety of the aircraft
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We are simply tested for the use of certain drugs, not for impairment.
Alcohol is legal to use and quickly eliminated from the body. Low amounts of alcohol are not a problem, although it's very easy to go over those low limits.
Cannabis, on the other hand, usually is illegal to use, even in places where it's been decriminalized, plus it's slowly eliminated from the body, so that the detection of trace amounts even a month or more after use, when there's almost no question of impairment, can be as bad or worse than having a too-high BAC.
Some of us may remember that scene from Pulp Fiction where Vincent Vega is telling Jules about the "hash bars" in Amsterdam. Check this out:
"Cannabis is less harmful to a user’s health than hard drugs such as ecstasy and cocaine, but it remains an illegal substance. This means that the trade in as well as the sale, production and possession of this drug is punishable by law. A tolerance policy is active in the Netherlands which means the possession and sale of soft drugs is recognised as a violation of the law, but isn’t prosecuted." (FAQ Coffeeshops in Amsterdam | I amsterdam)
Alcohol is legal to use and quickly eliminated from the body. Low amounts of alcohol are not a problem, although it's very easy to go over those low limits.
Cannabis, on the other hand, usually is illegal to use, even in places where it's been decriminalized, plus it's slowly eliminated from the body, so that the detection of trace amounts even a month or more after use, when there's almost no question of impairment, can be as bad or worse than having a too-high BAC.
Some of us may remember that scene from Pulp Fiction where Vincent Vega is telling Jules about the "hash bars" in Amsterdam. Check this out:
"Cannabis is less harmful to a user’s health than hard drugs such as ecstasy and cocaine, but it remains an illegal substance. This means that the trade in as well as the sale, production and possession of this drug is punishable by law. A tolerance policy is active in the Netherlands which means the possession and sale of soft drugs is recognised as a violation of the law, but isn’t prosecuted." (FAQ Coffeeshops in Amsterdam | I amsterdam)
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"harryw
The 2005 study (your link) related to light aircraft/general aviation crashes."
Yes I know....but just as GA obeys the same physics as commercial aircraft the affect of impairment of the pilots is similar for both.
of course if not feel free to post a study counteracting this.
The 2005 study (your link) related to light aircraft/general aviation crashes."
Yes I know....but just as GA obeys the same physics as commercial aircraft the affect of impairment of the pilots is similar for both.
of course if not feel free to post a study counteracting this.
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It's very rarely that drugs, including alcohol, feature in public transport aircraft accidents. We get into a cost-benefits argument then, given that this problem does not seem to be a large one. Simply put, there are more beneficial things to spend money on when trying to improve the safety of air travel than increased drug testing of crews.
When it happens, it's bad, of course, but it's a very rare occurrence in airline operations, fortunately. Just for starters, there are two of you in the cockpit, plus one or more cabin crew, so that someone might notice your being over the limit, especially when you have all just been on a night-stop together. In private flying you are often alone in the cockpit, with no one to notice that you might have been drinking.
I remember once when I went over to have a word with the pilot of a Cessna 195 Airmaster, after he had done a rather neat "crop-duster" style approach at our airport, one with a lot of student traffic. When he opened the door I could see all these shiny alloy beer cans rolling around on the floor behind his seat!
I just complimented him on his classic round-engine machine and took my low-time, non-rich self off in a different direction then, because there was not much sense in trying to get his attention, a nobody talking to a somebody, a somebody who was probably half-lit. That was 40 years ago, and down South, when a different approach to all this was taken.
He later dinged in, when the accident report autopsy showed him positive for alcohol, but there he was a rich guy who flew alone and did as he pleased. There was no way he could have got away with that flagrant behavior when flying for an airline, even then.
When it happens, it's bad, of course, but it's a very rare occurrence in airline operations, fortunately. Just for starters, there are two of you in the cockpit, plus one or more cabin crew, so that someone might notice your being over the limit, especially when you have all just been on a night-stop together. In private flying you are often alone in the cockpit, with no one to notice that you might have been drinking.
I remember once when I went over to have a word with the pilot of a Cessna 195 Airmaster, after he had done a rather neat "crop-duster" style approach at our airport, one with a lot of student traffic. When he opened the door I could see all these shiny alloy beer cans rolling around on the floor behind his seat!
I just complimented him on his classic round-engine machine and took my low-time, non-rich self off in a different direction then, because there was not much sense in trying to get his attention, a nobody talking to a somebody, a somebody who was probably half-lit. That was 40 years ago, and down South, when a different approach to all this was taken.
He later dinged in, when the accident report autopsy showed him positive for alcohol, but there he was a rich guy who flew alone and did as he pleased. There was no way he could have got away with that flagrant behavior when flying for an airline, even then.
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I presented myself for an FAA checkride one morning to a Designated Pilot Examiner who following the oral, informed me that we couldn't fly until 1100 at the earliest as he had been drinking into the early hours of the morning. As the morning wore on however, it became clear that his hangover was progressively getting worse and the copious amounts of coffee and jugs of Gatorade just weren't helping so he effectively persuaded me to call off the trip on the basis that the crosswind was likely to be outside limits by the time we taxied - it was only a few degrees off the axis and less than 12kts forecast for the entire day, in addition to me having several thousand hours of experience. We met again the following week, flew and as I shutdown he handed me a pre-typed Temporary Airman's Certificate to sign...I learned about flying that day. This gentlemen flew Part 121 for a living.
Another guy I knew was an A320 skipper with a large US carrier who was often seen wandering around the local grocery store in uniform minus his epaulettes before mid-morning, nursing a large 7 eleven jug and slurping away as he went - who drinks vodka through a straw? My point being that although I'm sure most of the sorry tales we see reported are no more than an unfortunate aberration, whether it be an oversight of the strength of the local tipple or inadvertently reaching for 2/3 of a bottle of scotch in the night instead of your glass of water, some aircrew, in common with a proportion of the rest of society, suffer the appalling affliction of alcoholism, yet apparently manage to remain high-functioning and continue their daily routine unaffected by their diminished mental health state. The gentlemen described in my examples above are both now retired but there are many who continue to fly and who need help and support to either stop drinking or stop flying and sometimes, it's the intervention of the TSA or suspicion of a local security screener that makes that decision for them. Surely there has to be a better deterrent than merely a chance that you get caught?
Another guy I knew was an A320 skipper with a large US carrier who was often seen wandering around the local grocery store in uniform minus his epaulettes before mid-morning, nursing a large 7 eleven jug and slurping away as he went - who drinks vodka through a straw? My point being that although I'm sure most of the sorry tales we see reported are no more than an unfortunate aberration, whether it be an oversight of the strength of the local tipple or inadvertently reaching for 2/3 of a bottle of scotch in the night instead of your glass of water, some aircrew, in common with a proportion of the rest of society, suffer the appalling affliction of alcoholism, yet apparently manage to remain high-functioning and continue their daily routine unaffected by their diminished mental health state. The gentlemen described in my examples above are both now retired but there are many who continue to fly and who need help and support to either stop drinking or stop flying and sometimes, it's the intervention of the TSA or suspicion of a local security screener that makes that decision for them. Surely there has to be a better deterrent than merely a chance that you get caught?
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If there's a better deterrent than the risk of landing on your butt, out of your high-paying and still somewhat prestigious job, in late middle age, I have no idea what that is! Ol' Demon Rum gets on top of you without you even noticing that, and then it's usually denial-denial-denial until the hammer comes down, since denial is part of being an alcoholic.
I've watched it happen several times. once even cornering the guilty party when he came into my office for some expense money, badgering him about this rumor that we all had heard, that he kept a bottle of Whyte and Mackay in his night table.
"Well, yes, but sometimes I have people come to visit!" was the answer to that, when I told him that the rest of us invited our visitors into the bar for a few drinks, that we did not need to stock booze in our rooms.
Needless to say, he laughed it all off, me not being ex-RAF and all, until one night when our Flight Surgeon came into the bar late one evening when this fellow was on earlies and discovered, shock, horror, that the man was heavily intoxicated, too far gone to ever even hope to report for duty the next morning at 0700 cold sober. Then he finally joined AA and all, but it took being fired to finally wake him up to reality. That's the booze for you.
After that there's just, if you are lucky, one of those wearisome programs the that let you get your medical back if you can prove that you have learned how to stop drinking, not that you can ever stop being an alcoholic.
I've watched it happen several times. once even cornering the guilty party when he came into my office for some expense money, badgering him about this rumor that we all had heard, that he kept a bottle of Whyte and Mackay in his night table.
"Well, yes, but sometimes I have people come to visit!" was the answer to that, when I told him that the rest of us invited our visitors into the bar for a few drinks, that we did not need to stock booze in our rooms.
Needless to say, he laughed it all off, me not being ex-RAF and all, until one night when our Flight Surgeon came into the bar late one evening when this fellow was on earlies and discovered, shock, horror, that the man was heavily intoxicated, too far gone to ever even hope to report for duty the next morning at 0700 cold sober. Then he finally joined AA and all, but it took being fired to finally wake him up to reality. That's the booze for you.
After that there's just, if you are lucky, one of those wearisome programs the that let you get your medical back if you can prove that you have learned how to stop drinking, not that you can ever stop being an alcoholic.
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harryw
You misunderstood my point.
See the first sentence of the post after yours -
That can not be said about light aircraft/GA accidents worldwide.
Yes I know....but just as GA obeys the same physics as commercial aircraft the affect of impairment of the pilots is similar for both.
of course if not feel free to post a study counteracting this.
of course if not feel free to post a study counteracting this.
See the first sentence of the post after yours -
It's very rarely that drugs, including alcohol, feature in public transport aircraft accidents.
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badgering him about this rumor that we all had heard, that he kept a bottle of Whyte and Mackay in his night table.
Sadly though chuks, the risks do not always outweigh the need and as you say, denial is part of it.
Last edited by Reverserbucket; 15th Apr 2016 at 14:05.
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I worked at a place where the Chief Pilot (and another FAA DPE if I recall) kept a bottle of scotch in the drawer of his desk in the office.
No one crashed.
Maybe we even performed better, who knows.
