B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don
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Vortex Thing. +1
Well said colleage.
And don't forget those really bad rosters for the 85% of the pilots, several nights in a row with minimum rest and continue with body clock changes all along the month.
Well said colleage.
And don't forget those really bad rosters for the 85% of the pilots, several nights in a row with minimum rest and continue with body clock changes all along the month.
Vortex Thing - good post, mate. Condolences to your colleagues both sides of the cockpit door and their families / friends.
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Vortex Thing has it pretty much spot on.
The flight was loaded with maximum fuel, allowing 6 tons of tankering fuel. This equated to roughly 2 hours of holding time, which fits nicely with the reported facts. This would have been arranged by the company (NCC). The mantra here at flydubai is to hold as long as possible, whatever the weather, in the hope that there will a window of opportunity to land. The company would rather spend money holding than diverting/ delaying or even cancelling a flight.
The captain had indeed been offered a job with Ryanair, but was not leaving on Monday (as suggested). I understand he was due to start with Ryanair in April.
I also understand that the captain flew to India the previous night, another long night flight. Whilst I cannot say that fatigue was an issue, he would have certainly been tired. If, like me, you are unable to get an appropriate amount of sleep post a night flight, the next night flight is that much harder. All one has to do is go through the Flydubai thread on the middle east thread and read all the posts regarding fatigue and rostering. You will see that fatigue has been an issue for a few years now, something that the safety department is powerless to do anything about.
Flydubai lost appx 80 pilots last year alone. The primary reason for the resignations was rostering, as the level of fatigue was simply unmanageable for some. I also understand that we had 21 resignations in January alone.
Each month, a safety bulletin is released detailing most of the ASR's for that period. You would be amazed at the amount of fatigue reports submitted. It is truly frightening that an airline can operate with such an unsafe rostering culture.
I have no wish to speculate as to the cause of the crash, I will leave that to the investigation. However, IF fatigue is found as a contributing factor, I can honestly say that I am not surprised.
I am just so sad that so many people lost their lives that night and that the investigation is swift and thorough. Flydubai will never be the same again.
The flight was loaded with maximum fuel, allowing 6 tons of tankering fuel. This equated to roughly 2 hours of holding time, which fits nicely with the reported facts. This would have been arranged by the company (NCC). The mantra here at flydubai is to hold as long as possible, whatever the weather, in the hope that there will a window of opportunity to land. The company would rather spend money holding than diverting/ delaying or even cancelling a flight.
The captain had indeed been offered a job with Ryanair, but was not leaving on Monday (as suggested). I understand he was due to start with Ryanair in April.
I also understand that the captain flew to India the previous night, another long night flight. Whilst I cannot say that fatigue was an issue, he would have certainly been tired. If, like me, you are unable to get an appropriate amount of sleep post a night flight, the next night flight is that much harder. All one has to do is go through the Flydubai thread on the middle east thread and read all the posts regarding fatigue and rostering. You will see that fatigue has been an issue for a few years now, something that the safety department is powerless to do anything about.
Flydubai lost appx 80 pilots last year alone. The primary reason for the resignations was rostering, as the level of fatigue was simply unmanageable for some. I also understand that we had 21 resignations in January alone.
Each month, a safety bulletin is released detailing most of the ASR's for that period. You would be amazed at the amount of fatigue reports submitted. It is truly frightening that an airline can operate with such an unsafe rostering culture.
I have no wish to speculate as to the cause of the crash, I will leave that to the investigation. However, IF fatigue is found as a contributing factor, I can honestly say that I am not surprised.
I am just so sad that so many people lost their lives that night and that the investigation is swift and thorough. Flydubai will never be the same again.
Too many I told you so and blaming it on management in this thread.
Please, lets look at corrective actions as an output of an investigation and not blame.
I have no idea how to fix a blame.
We can address the product and the operation under regulations. I have no idea how to change somebody's personality or human fraility
Please, lets look at corrective actions as an output of an investigation and not blame.
I have no idea how to fix a blame.
We can address the product and the operation under regulations. I have no idea how to change somebody's personality or human fraility
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Hmm corrective actions. Get a broom. Start a sweep go to the top floor of FZHQ sweep left, sweep right.
There is no shortage of experienced, well balanced people in FDB who could/should be doing the job. There is however a huge amount of inertia in the race to the bottom perpetuated by two men in particular who have proven track records of not giving a monkeys about anything other than themselves and with no regard for their legacy and the very real effect on very real peoples lives.
So no sorry I do not agree that we should not being saying "I told you so" and I do not agree that operations has any bearing here as the regulatory environment does not exist in Dubai.
There is one law for the rich and NO law for management. They signed on the dotted line and they take the money. You cannot contract out of responsibility and when its due its due.
People are dead and though the exact cause is yet to come out it is as always only the last chain in the swiss cheese model. The facts that we have and those who operate at FZ know without doubt is that undue commercial pressure exists, morale is poor, the culture is vindictive, accusatory and manifestly unjust. That in sum had no little part in the chain of events leading to this sad chapter in the history of the airline.
You are asking for a moratorium on fact. Sorry now is the time for ALL the facts not just the convenient ones.
You ask how to change someones personality, well the answer is simple, Carrot or Stick.
The reason we have a justice system and a prison service is because sometimes we cannot change personality. You cannot tame every tiger and lion. However that is why we invented weapons and cages. When we get past the physicality then that is why we have law and process. Hiding behind the veil of incorporation is right up there with, " I was only following orders" It wasn't a defence at Nuremberg and isn't one now.
So sorry, no we will not go quietly into the night and let them brush away the facts and replace them with believable truths. People are dead. You can't unring a bell and it is called culpability. They rolled the dice and had a choice. If you want to believe that JV and KG had nothing to do with it and that their culture of fear, oppression and bullying was irrelevant then you say that in your post.
In mine I say. I told you so.
There is no shortage of experienced, well balanced people in FDB who could/should be doing the job. There is however a huge amount of inertia in the race to the bottom perpetuated by two men in particular who have proven track records of not giving a monkeys about anything other than themselves and with no regard for their legacy and the very real effect on very real peoples lives.
So no sorry I do not agree that we should not being saying "I told you so" and I do not agree that operations has any bearing here as the regulatory environment does not exist in Dubai.
There is one law for the rich and NO law for management. They signed on the dotted line and they take the money. You cannot contract out of responsibility and when its due its due.
People are dead and though the exact cause is yet to come out it is as always only the last chain in the swiss cheese model. The facts that we have and those who operate at FZ know without doubt is that undue commercial pressure exists, morale is poor, the culture is vindictive, accusatory and manifestly unjust. That in sum had no little part in the chain of events leading to this sad chapter in the history of the airline.
You are asking for a moratorium on fact. Sorry now is the time for ALL the facts not just the convenient ones.
You ask how to change someones personality, well the answer is simple, Carrot or Stick.
The reason we have a justice system and a prison service is because sometimes we cannot change personality. You cannot tame every tiger and lion. However that is why we invented weapons and cages. When we get past the physicality then that is why we have law and process. Hiding behind the veil of incorporation is right up there with, " I was only following orders" It wasn't a defence at Nuremberg and isn't one now.
So sorry, no we will not go quietly into the night and let them brush away the facts and replace them with believable truths. People are dead. You can't unring a bell and it is called culpability. They rolled the dice and had a choice. If you want to believe that JV and KG had nothing to do with it and that their culture of fear, oppression and bullying was irrelevant then you say that in your post.
In mine I say. I told you so.
Last edited by Vortex Thing; 13th Apr 2016 at 15:08. Reason: typo
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tatelyle
I see what you did there, deflecting the blame to entire industry.
When EU OPS introduced new FDTL rules based on fatigue monitoring, they didn't expect one regulator to tweak those so much. Basically one pro-airline regulator figured out introducing fear (of losing your job/livelihood) reduces fatigue.
There are still airlines in some countries using FAA FDTL rules, unfortunately they are as productive as these airlines.
I see what you did there, deflecting the blame to entire industry.
When EU OPS introduced new FDTL rules based on fatigue monitoring, they didn't expect one regulator to tweak those so much. Basically one pro-airline regulator figured out introducing fear (of losing your job/livelihood) reduces fatigue.
There are still airlines in some countries using FAA FDTL rules, unfortunately they are as productive as these airlines.
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In an NG? Don't discount anything, however I think it would be unlikely. Despite parts of the aeroplane being cut & paste jobs of earlier variants, the rudder system was modified, partly in response to hardover events with the classics. I don't believe there have been any hardover events with the NG series. I believe it would take multiple failures involving separate systems for this to occur.
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The captain seems to be requesting the second approach right after getting a weather update (windshear)from ATC,did not seem to leave much room for the F/O to give his opinion.
Gusty headwinds of up to 36 knots,very low pressure,low mist and rain showers are all but signs of a thunderstorm(s) nearby if not on the field.
During the approach,the first officer voice and requests of confirmations seems to show that he may be worried about what he is seeing and not comfortable with the situation he is in.
The call of go around seemed that of a "yep i told you so",blaze tone.
Vortex,one may blame all the industry,fatigue,bad training,poor handling but unfortunately it seems a case of poor judgement which turned out deadly.
Diverting would have been easier,explanation to the boss as well,and worse case a meeting with no biscuits but a chance to show him the finger and tell him to sit and spin before leaving to better pastures.
Weatherwise,do they use the term CB/SHRA for TSRA?to be honest,one scares me more than the others...
Gusty headwinds of up to 36 knots,very low pressure,low mist and rain showers are all but signs of a thunderstorm(s) nearby if not on the field.
During the approach,the first officer voice and requests of confirmations seems to show that he may be worried about what he is seeing and not comfortable with the situation he is in.
The call of go around seemed that of a "yep i told you so",blaze tone.
Vortex,one may blame all the industry,fatigue,bad training,poor handling but unfortunately it seems a case of poor judgement which turned out deadly.
Diverting would have been easier,explanation to the boss as well,and worse case a meeting with no biscuits but a chance to show him the finger and tell him to sit and spin before leaving to better pastures.
Weatherwise,do they use the term CB/SHRA for TSRA?to be honest,one scares me more than the others...
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To be fair tatelyle was just being sarcastic. Its a bit like saying that all airlines are like FR.
They aren't. I have flown for enough airlines to know that some have a culture that is like FZ and most though unlikely to be awarded medals for being touchy feely are nothing like FZ. FZ is a special type of management. In FR everyone is treated badly and equally badly but it isn't closeted. You know how it is when you join, it doesn't change when you are there or when you have left. There were few surprises. However the treatment isn't personal it is generally just a lack of flexibility, due diligence or care for you and yours.
However FZ sells itself as something different, it says all the right things to all the right people but poke even a millimetre under the veneer and you find cabin crew so terrified of calling sick that they go to work when they should be in hospital. Back home in Europe you don't have the chance of your family being stuck with their visa cancelled and or going to jail for a debt incurred by the necessity to have a place to live and school fees to pay upfront.
Therefore the fact that you may be treated badly is just an annoyance. In FZ it could cost you your liberty and worse yet it doesn't matter if you are innocent, guilty or otherwise. If JV or KG take umbrage with you, you are done.
Basically JV could be found standing over the body with a smoking gun in his hand. He would say it was your fault for discovering him about to clean it and blame you for startling him. He would then stop paying you so that you couldn't testify otherwise just to make sure. He's a nice guy like that. FZ makes FR look like Virgin!
They aren't. I have flown for enough airlines to know that some have a culture that is like FZ and most though unlikely to be awarded medals for being touchy feely are nothing like FZ. FZ is a special type of management. In FR everyone is treated badly and equally badly but it isn't closeted. You know how it is when you join, it doesn't change when you are there or when you have left. There were few surprises. However the treatment isn't personal it is generally just a lack of flexibility, due diligence or care for you and yours.
However FZ sells itself as something different, it says all the right things to all the right people but poke even a millimetre under the veneer and you find cabin crew so terrified of calling sick that they go to work when they should be in hospital. Back home in Europe you don't have the chance of your family being stuck with their visa cancelled and or going to jail for a debt incurred by the necessity to have a place to live and school fees to pay upfront.
Therefore the fact that you may be treated badly is just an annoyance. In FZ it could cost you your liberty and worse yet it doesn't matter if you are innocent, guilty or otherwise. If JV or KG take umbrage with you, you are done.
Basically JV could be found standing over the body with a smoking gun in his hand. He would say it was your fault for discovering him about to clean it and blame you for startling him. He would then stop paying you so that you couldn't testify otherwise just to make sure. He's a nice guy like that. FZ makes FR look like Virgin!
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Not related to this incident in any way, I thought I'd just throw out there that I almost flew FZ once as a passenger. However, they cancelled my flight. They refused to refund me in cash, but instead issued a voucher that could be used against any other FZ flight in twelve months – which was precisely zero use to me given that I don't live in Dubai. After that experience I swore that I'd never give them another penny.
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Its called commercial pressure
de facto
I would have hoped and likely thought that the skipper and FO having had almost two hours to discuss it. Went through actions on seeing the required visual references and actions on one or both being unhappy and if 'you' perceive a little quelle surprise in one or other pilots voices it is likely a joint one of , 'why are we even here in the first place'. Which having flown for 6 hrs and flown two go arounds is not that unreasonable a question!
In any other airline diverting would a) likely not have been necessary as they likely wouldn't have dispatched and b) if they had done so would have been patted on the back by the aboves for taking the decision.
FZ doesn't work like that. NCC send you ACARS messages saying. DO NOT DIVERT, CONTINUE, Chief Pilot says continue, YOU ARE LEGAL TO CONTINUE. NCC will tell you that you will be reported if you don't hold. NCC tell you that you cannot offload passengers who assault crew or are drunk. NCC of course aren't legally responsible as you correctly say the crew had the ability to say no. But in reality they had as much ability to say no as people had not to get in the box cars back in the day.
I would have hoped and likely thought that the skipper and FO having had almost two hours to discuss it. Went through actions on seeing the required visual references and actions on one or both being unhappy and if 'you' perceive a little quelle surprise in one or other pilots voices it is likely a joint one of , 'why are we even here in the first place'. Which having flown for 6 hrs and flown two go arounds is not that unreasonable a question!
In any other airline diverting would a) likely not have been necessary as they likely wouldn't have dispatched and b) if they had done so would have been patted on the back by the aboves for taking the decision.
FZ doesn't work like that. NCC send you ACARS messages saying. DO NOT DIVERT, CONTINUE, Chief Pilot says continue, YOU ARE LEGAL TO CONTINUE. NCC will tell you that you will be reported if you don't hold. NCC tell you that you cannot offload passengers who assault crew or are drunk. NCC of course aren't legally responsible as you correctly say the crew had the ability to say no. But in reality they had as much ability to say no as people had not to get in the box cars back in the day.
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Thank you, Vortex Thing!
It has taken some time before somebody dared to let the skeleton out of the closet, but if you have kept an eye on FZ in the ME forum, what you say has been out there for a long time. For some odd reason, they all went mute when their predictions came true with this accident.
This is about FZ, but could just as easy have been EK, QR, EY or WY. Or any other ME carrier. It's not about how good they are, it's about how bad they treat their crew. Some are worse than the others, but none are good.
You can only fire pilots when they make mistakes. When they die, you can't.
I can only hope ALL aspects of the way FZ is run is brought to the surface.
The public should then be aware it is pretty much the same with the other ME carriers.
It has taken some time before somebody dared to let the skeleton out of the closet, but if you have kept an eye on FZ in the ME forum, what you say has been out there for a long time. For some odd reason, they all went mute when their predictions came true with this accident.
This is about FZ, but could just as easy have been EK, QR, EY or WY. Or any other ME carrier. It's not about how good they are, it's about how bad they treat their crew. Some are worse than the others, but none are good.
You can only fire pilots when they make mistakes. When they die, you can't.
I can only hope ALL aspects of the way FZ is run is brought to the surface.
The public should then be aware it is pretty much the same with the other ME carriers.
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It would seem they had set QNH for the approach.
However I do not believe it would be altimetry errors that would be a major contributory factor. The all important factor is the sudden and catastrophic pitch down. More likely cause for such uncontrollable sudden pitch change is stab trim . If the stab runaway all the way to nose down, pull back on the control column will cause the stab chord line to increase and increase acceleration towards the ground.
My question therefore is what may have initiated stab change.
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Hardly they would have come to an agreement to start the second approach right after being cautionned of windshear on final....but time will tell.
From your description of the airline management, it is at the opposite spectrum of any airlines i have worked for..(low cost to legacy, US to Asia),eventhough some decisions had to be explained face to face and understood.
Hopefully,the airline issue on that subject will be brought to light,and such ACARS messages kept for future reference...
From your description of the airline management, it is at the opposite spectrum of any airlines i have worked for..(low cost to legacy, US to Asia),eventhough some decisions had to be explained face to face and understood.
Hopefully,the airline issue on that subject will be brought to light,and such ACARS messages kept for future reference...
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If only half of what Vortex Thing says is true, then this airline must have an awful work culture.
Now, I know, they aren't the only ones......
VTs post explains a lot. If I tried and couldn't get in, I'd come off the go around with a mind to divert, unless there was some hope that the wx would improve mightily, and soon.
I might shoot another approach straightaway, and then bugger off to my div. no way would I hold for 2 hours. In some 13,000 hours, I've never done so.
I suspect, as Vortex Thing states, that this companies operating culture played some part in what took place here.
Now, I know, they aren't the only ones......
VTs post explains a lot. If I tried and couldn't get in, I'd come off the go around with a mind to divert, unless there was some hope that the wx would improve mightily, and soon.
I might shoot another approach straightaway, and then bugger off to my div. no way would I hold for 2 hours. In some 13,000 hours, I've never done so.
I suspect, as Vortex Thing states, that this companies operating culture played some part in what took place here.
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They're your countrymen JammedStab!
But I believe previous jobs were Beelzebub's henchmen and aide de camp.
Chief Commercial Officer of Mephistopheles Air.
Architect of Bodgitandscarper Operations Manuals.
Or something like that. If its not entirely true then that may be because after years of their training I understand that you should never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
But I believe previous jobs were Beelzebub's henchmen and aide de camp.
Chief Commercial Officer of Mephistopheles Air.
Architect of Bodgitandscarper Operations Manuals.
Or something like that. If its not entirely true then that may be because after years of their training I understand that you should never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
Last edited by Vortex Thing; 22nd Mar 2016 at 08:19.
