Alaska Lands on Taxiway in SEA..
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Guys: red herrings. It's a clear visual day; the crew are familiar with the airport; ATC offer a sidestep if you are visual not only with the original runway, but also with the sidestep runway; the crew accept this under these conditions.
WTF has an airfield chart got to do with anything? Mk.1 eyeball was out the window not goggling at any chart inside.
WTF has an airfield chart got to do with anything? Mk.1 eyeball was out the window not goggling at any chart inside.
Well, (on the chart) all of the runway designators are offset sideways from the runways, so as not to obscure the approach lighting symbology...
...but that aligns the label (16C) right above which piece of paving?
I can see both sides of the discussion - but as RAT-5 implies: don't be lookin' at the chart - be lookin' out the windscreen!
...but that aligns the label (16C) right above which piece of paving?
I can see both sides of the discussion - but as RAT-5 implies: don't be lookin' at the chart - be lookin' out the windscreen!
As was already said, the charts most probably did not come in the 'picture' during the side step...
But on the Jepp putting the 16C tag precisely in front of T, isn't the brightest idea, me thinks. Of course this should never be a problem, anybody can see the solid black rwy's and the grey twy's. But at the wrong place, the wrong moment, having a brain fart, the mind could trick you in thinking that 16C is the concrete strip just next to 16R.
Don't know if FAA's idea of putting things upside down and omitting the HIALS, is much better...
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Wherever there are approach lights, Jeppesen offsets the runway number as they have done at Seattle. The "hint" is the thick black graphic for the runway and the light grey for the taxiway.
Note they also have the runway end elevation with an arrow pointing to the runway. They do not have that for any taxiway.
Note they also have the runway end elevation with an arrow pointing to the runway. They do not have that for any taxiway.
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The "hint" is the thick black graphic for the runway and the light grey for the taxiway.
CAUTION:
DO NOT MISTAKE
TAXIWAY T
FOR LANDING
SURFACE
DO NOT MISTAKE
TAXIWAY T
FOR LANDING
SURFACE
There may be some "factors", but, sorry, no excuses. Alaskan pilots are not unfamiliar with SEA. We count on professional pilots to perform professionally. But for the grace of God there was no one else on the taxiway when they landed. This could have been a much different thread.
I hope that every opportunity is taken at Alaska and other airlines as well to emphasize proper practices with their pilots.
There is some good news in that Honeywell has introduced Smart Landing which should "advise" pilots when they line up not on a runway.
I hope that every opportunity is taken at Alaska and other airlines as well to emphasize proper practices with their pilots.
There is some good news in that Honeywell has introduced Smart Landing which should "advise" pilots when they line up not on a runway.
I see SEA 10 or so times a year, use Jepp charts. Haven't landed on a taxiway yet. Don't think you can chalk it up to that, especially given it was a relatively last minute runway change.
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Listened to the tape. ATC initiated the sidestep. Listen to it again
Some of the posts that I see here surprise me...
For those that are convinced that these pilots will never do it again...why not, they did it once already. There are people who have made the same mistake twice.
For those that find the Jepp chart confusing, why. It is crystal clear that the taxiway is not a runway and is specifically labelled multiple times as taxiway with separate note not to land on it. None of the runway designators are aligned with their associated runway.
For those baffled as to why this could happen, ask yourself why does an experienced pilot or mechanic walk into a moving prop. It happened to a highly experienced bush instructor pilot this summer in Alaska. Do you think he wasn't aware of the danger. Of course he was.
So one has to make an analysis and ask themselves why. Well, the Alaska pilot had a sudden event happen to him on his sloped terrain with multiple Piper Cubs parked with engines running to keep unexpected swarms of mosquitos at bay. One of the aircraft started moving by itself and the instructor suddenly reacted to this event by forgetting about moving props and running into his own prop while attempting to get toward the moving aircraft.
So what likely happened in Seattle. Likely, a couple of very experienced and locally familiar pilots well aware of this taxiway issue got a last minute runway change as a visual maneuver and the known taxiway issue was completely forgotten about and new important priorities took over requiring a significant amount of new concentration for a procedure not necessarily done on a regular basis.
For those that think something like this, not necessarily specifically this exact event but something along the same lines as this(whether aviation related or not) can't happen to them...you are very wrong.
Some of the posts that I see here surprise me...
For those that are convinced that these pilots will never do it again...why not, they did it once already. There are people who have made the same mistake twice.
For those that find the Jepp chart confusing, why. It is crystal clear that the taxiway is not a runway and is specifically labelled multiple times as taxiway with separate note not to land on it. None of the runway designators are aligned with their associated runway.
For those baffled as to why this could happen, ask yourself why does an experienced pilot or mechanic walk into a moving prop. It happened to a highly experienced bush instructor pilot this summer in Alaska. Do you think he wasn't aware of the danger. Of course he was.
So one has to make an analysis and ask themselves why. Well, the Alaska pilot had a sudden event happen to him on his sloped terrain with multiple Piper Cubs parked with engines running to keep unexpected swarms of mosquitos at bay. One of the aircraft started moving by itself and the instructor suddenly reacted to this event by forgetting about moving props and running into his own prop while attempting to get toward the moving aircraft.
So what likely happened in Seattle. Likely, a couple of very experienced and locally familiar pilots well aware of this taxiway issue got a last minute runway change as a visual maneuver and the known taxiway issue was completely forgotten about and new important priorities took over requiring a significant amount of new concentration for a procedure not necessarily done on a regular basis.
For those that think something like this, not necessarily specifically this exact event but something along the same lines as this(whether aviation related or not) can't happen to them...you are very wrong.
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I fully agree that the runway diagrams, most likely, had nothing to do with this or the previous three landings on taxiway Tango at KSEA.
The fact remains that this particular runway/taxiway configuration at SEATAC needs some type of enhanced visual cues in addition to the standard taxiway markings or there will continue to be recurrences.
God forbid that it's going to take a collision with another aircraft or a ground vehicle in order to get this accomplished.
The fact remains that this particular runway/taxiway configuration at SEATAC needs some type of enhanced visual cues in addition to the standard taxiway markings or there will continue to be recurrences.
God forbid that it's going to take a collision with another aircraft or a ground vehicle in order to get this accomplished.
Last edited by wanabee777; 4th Jan 2016 at 17:49.
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on charts
jammedf stab said
well which chart was active ?
http://www.pprune.org/9227078-post56.ht
please note date on chart of 4 dec 15
then note date on
http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1513/00582ad.pdf
Then note date of 10 dec 2015 to 07 Jan 2016
Listen for the flapping of posterior covers . .
For those that find the Jepp chart confusing, why. It is crystal clear that the taxiway is not a runway and is specifically labelled multiple times as taxiway with separate note not to land on it. None of the runway designators are aligned with their associated runway.
http://www.pprune.org/9227078-post56.ht
please note date on chart of 4 dec 15
then note date on
http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1513/00582ad.pdf
Then note date of 10 dec 2015 to 07 Jan 2016
Listen for the flapping of posterior covers . .