Turkish F16 shoots down unidentified aircraft in their airspace.

[oldoberon]

Originally Posted by Photonic

"So why is Turkey in any way strategic?"

One reason Russia is involved here at all, is to preserve its one Naval base in Syria with access to the Med, and its one airfield in Syria.

Those planes need fuel. The way fuel gets there is on tankers from the Black Sea, through the Dardanelles and Bosphorus, smack dab in the middle of northern Turkey. Russia's options are limited if they want to preserve those bases in Syria, and not have to send oil tankers around the long way from its North Fleet bases in the arctic.

easier for russia to do that than for Turkey to stop its citizens freezing to death this winter, they supply 57% of Turkey's gas- looks like they may be a bout to do it.

Russia Declares Warplane Downing A "Hostile Act" But Will It Cut Turkish Gas Supplies? | Zero Hedge

Different point I think Nato response to Turkey was wrong and probably from top politicos outside immediate Nato structure.

It should have at least mentioned the duration of said excursion and fact missile hit was outside Turkey and said something along the lines a bit of a hasty reaction

[West Coast]

Why not share the full grasp of things with the rest of us?

Or better yet, why not simply follow the news and government releases rather than draw conclusions and rush to post them here.

[silvertate]

Strategic importance of Turkey.

What about the US ? Incirlik is one of the important airbases for them.

You have obviously not been to the region often.

The US has a large airbase in eastern Turkey, Incirlik, but the Americans are widely despised and mocked among the locals for being there. Everyone knows that the only reason the base is there is because the US pays $2 billion a year for it to be there, and most of that goes directly into the pocket of King Erdogan. And King Erdogan uses this money to build his new royal palace in Constantinople, and to 'persuade' the more gullible sharia electorate in the east to vote for him. Nice little freebies are on offer, like free fridges, free coal and free potatoes - just what the rural unwashed want.

So Incirlik is a nice little earner that keeps King Erdogan in power, no more, no less. As their special book says: "you can enter into an aliance with the non believers if you are not in a position of strength, but it can be broken after ten years or when the situation changes". King Erdogan observed something similar when he said: "Democracy is like a train. You can get on an off it whenever you want.". Anyone who fully trusts King Erdogan needs to think again. The Americans know this, or should know this, and have plans to relocate to Cyprus at short notice.

As to the Russians needing oil from the Black Sea, that is not true. While Syria is not exactly overflowing with oil, it has enough to supply Russian needs, both in the port and the airbase near Latakia. The oil fields south of Homs are still in government hands, and still working, although at a reduced output. So Russia has no immediate worries about oil supplies to its forces.

As to Turkey controlling the Bosphorus, that may be a bit of a worry for Russia. Would they have to force their way though? Not yet a while. They have enough ships in the Black Sea (taken from Ukraine) and Med not to worry at present, and they can always bolster the Mediteranean fleet via Gibraltar. That is something to think about many moons from now. So does Russia have any worries about the strength of their position in the region? None at all.

ST

[Kulverstukas]

One group plants bombs on Russian planes, the other doesn't.

One group launches attacks in Paris, Beirut, Ankara and other places, the other doesn't.

The question only - which group?

[ExDubai]

easier for russia to do that than for Turkey to stop its citizens freezing to death this winter, they supply 57% of Turkey's gas- looks like they may be a bout to do it.

The pipeline from the Azerbaijan/caspian sea is in operation since 2006. So no need for freezing.....

[angels]

The question only - which group?

I rest my case.

I pointed out that the Kremlin had lied when it said it was targeting ISIS when it wasn't. You then tried to muddy the waters by saying all anti-Assadists were terrorists -- which doesn't address the original lie.

You ended up by asking me a rhetorical question to which I actually gave several answers.

You have not answered any of my questions.

Neutrals can draw their own conclusions.

[peekay4]

"Russian marine killed during operation to rescue pilot whose warplane was shot down by Turkey, reports state-run agency RIA Novosti." -CNN

[G-CPTN]

What are the ROE WRT 'paratroops'?

Do you have to wait until they land before you can attack them?

(Of course, we know that some rebel groups are not bound by ROE.)

Attacks on parachutists while descending by parachutes from disabled aircraft is considered by most militaries around the world to be inhumane, barbaric, and unchivalrous.
However, it is not prohibited under this Protocol to open fire on airborne troops who are descending by parachutes, even if their aircraft is in distress.

[lomapaseo]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I wonder if the tipping point here for the Russian public, was the intentional killing of the pilots. That to me, was a point that didn't need to be made towards defending soverign territory.

[ExDubai]

You have obviously not been to the region often.

I spent most of my time at the Hodja Lakes GC

No need to teach me about the Sultan. I don't trust him, neither I trust the Zar

[G-CPTN]

That to me, was a point that didn't need to be made towards defending sovereign territory.

But weren't the aviators downed in Syria, rather than in Turkey?

[AreOut]

russian version

Untitled :: Mycity-Military.com

that border pocket certainly looks a bit smaller on russian map, no?!

[Kulverstukas]

that border pocket certainly looks a bit smaller on russian map, no?!

BBC card (or Turkish if it's it so) is nowhere near real scale. Look google maps yourself.

[TowerDog]

Yes, it was a matter of time.
Putin has been flexing muscle and showing "strength" by flying too close to, and violating sovereign borders numerous times over the last few years.
Perhaps the Turkish fighter jock overreacted and was trigger happy, or he had clear instructions to blow any Russian plane out of the sky if it crossed the boundary?

I was going to mention KAL 007 but somebody beat me to it.
There was also a Korean 707 forced down on a frozen lake by the Ruskies because of a border incursion.

Not sure if the Russian pilots over Turkey failed their navigation classes, or if they intentionally violated Turkish airspace on orders from Kremlin, but either way it was a bit reckless and they payed the price.
Now diplomacy has to clean up the mess, or Putin has to take on NATO to show strength and to save face.

[Svejk]

Maps of the incident provided by Russian DoD:



The blue line is F16. The red line is SU24. SU24 doesn't cross the border. F16 crosses a bit into Syria.

Closer look. Point of AA hit (below):



SU24 crash site (below):



Turkish Map. Turks claimed that they didn't cross but Russians did. This map was claimed to be produced by the Turkish DoD but then they said that the map was produced by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (the political department).

[angels]

The Turks have issued tapes which show (allegedly) the warnings were in English and were directed to the plane as it approached Turkish airspace.

The recording I've heard says, "This is the Turkish Air Force. You are approaching Turkish air space. Turn south immediately." And it's repeated twice, not 10 times on the recording I heard but of course it could be truncated.

[AreOut]

this might be the source of the problem...apparently turkish border is "moved" some 5 miles into syrian territory after their jet got shot down in 2012

http://www.globalresearch.ca/russia-...border/5480430

next time they should tell Russians to update the maps before firing the missiles, might save them from harsh consequences that inevitably will follow...

[Yankee Whisky]

Track as given by Turkey/Russia

Makes absolutely no sense as does the Russian reply. They are both experts in the practice of lies.............................

[Lonewolf_50]

Originally Posted by Yankee Whisky

Makes absolutely no sense as does the Russian reply. They are both experts in the practice of lies.............................

A few points:

Erdogan like Putin has to put on a strong front. He's got his pride too. If he felt that the Russian play was screwing the Turkish play -- in Syria -- the "what are you gonna do about it" issue becomes political for him eventually.

For anyone in doubt, the chances that the Turkish F-16 engaged without considerable radio contact with his controllers on the ground is remote.

This means that there is probably an audit trail of orders from Ankara to whatever fighter wing is patrolling southern Turkey that defines some engagement criteria and some RoE. The Turks have been in NATO long enough to know how to do that sort of thing. That audit trail most likely classified Secret or something like it.

What happened after that plane got shot down .... Then again, given who these people are, any surprise?

I suspect that the Sixth Fleet is on alert and heading for the coast of Syria. It's 1982/1984 all over again, a few miles north. Back then, it was ing Lebanon.

Question for PPRuNe: what does all this do to flights into Istanbul?

Less important question for PPRuNe: the missus is thinking of us visiting the Holy Land with a group in our church, in August. I need to make the decision soon. Flight is Houston to Istanbul, then to Tel Aviv. I had my doubts before, as I've been to Israel and am not all that enthusiastic to go back. Got other places I haven't been.

The ripple effect of this will take a week or two to play out, but the longer term issues are beginning to concern me.

[AreOut]

Putin will likely do nothing before Russians are back home from holidays in Turkey, he certainly doesn't want thousands of Russians as hostages...last info I got is that russian tourist agencies are ordered to stop making any deals with turkish hotels

but after 10 days or so I wouldn't want to be in Turkey or anywhere close for that matter