Qatar Airways Runs Out Of Gas On Taxiway?
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What does ice have to do with this incident?
Many operators, perhaps including yours, prohibit single engine taxi with frozen precip falling or on slippery or contaminated taxiways or ramps.
Eppy, rally experience notwithstanding, I suggest that you are out of your depth with this one.
Try this with ANY twin that has wing mounted engines. A 737 or an Aztec, no matter what it is.
Park crosswind on a slippery surface. Shut down the engine on the windward side. Now, from a standing start, try to turn at minimum radius (as you may need to do to get into a tight parking spot) downwind.
Let us all know how you get on. Ultimate under steer.....?
PS saying that you can 'slide' an aircraft on the ground in a 'very safe manner' to make a tight turn is utter, utter bollocks. Also, if you have seen 'many others' doing it, there are more mugs out there than I ever imagined. Pilots deliberately doing this are setting themselves up for an excursion into the mud with all the misery of a bent prop or two, or a gear collapse.
Try this with ANY twin that has wing mounted engines. A 737 or an Aztec, no matter what it is.
Park crosswind on a slippery surface. Shut down the engine on the windward side. Now, from a standing start, try to turn at minimum radius (as you may need to do to get into a tight parking spot) downwind.
Let us all know how you get on. Ultimate under steer.....?
PS saying that you can 'slide' an aircraft on the ground in a 'very safe manner' to make a tight turn is utter, utter bollocks. Also, if you have seen 'many others' doing it, there are more mugs out there than I ever imagined. Pilots deliberately doing this are setting themselves up for an excursion into the mud with all the misery of a bent prop or two, or a gear collapse.
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 25th Nov 2015 at 20:56.
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Again not even sure if this is relevant as we don't even know what happened for sure. My point is I don't find the 777 really taxis well on one engine even in ideal conditions.....it is very heavy airplane and usually requires quite a bit of thrust.
I have had to be pulled with a tug twice this year in a fairly light airplane with both engines running. It obviously has sufficient thrust to break away, but once you get above 35-45% N1 and still aren't rolling you are in danger of hurting someone on the ground, blowing over equipment or knocking out windows etc....
I have seen cars moved 10 meters, GPUs sent tumbling, all sorts of stuff blown around by engines with half the thrust of 777.
So yes if slippery, it is definitely a smart call to use a tug vs trying it alone.
As a side note I remember flying a Saab 340.... Was fine to taxi in all conditions with one shut down, but was always a Rodeo when you shut the engines down on an icy ramp. Even with brakes on and wheels chalked, when the engines were feathered it would lurch forward, and I've seen it move 5 meters before.
I have had to be pulled with a tug twice this year in a fairly light airplane with both engines running. It obviously has sufficient thrust to break away, but once you get above 35-45% N1 and still aren't rolling you are in danger of hurting someone on the ground, blowing over equipment or knocking out windows etc....
I have seen cars moved 10 meters, GPUs sent tumbling, all sorts of stuff blown around by engines with half the thrust of 777.
So yes if slippery, it is definitely a smart call to use a tug vs trying it alone.
As a side note I remember flying a Saab 340.... Was fine to taxi in all conditions with one shut down, but was always a Rodeo when you shut the engines down on an icy ramp. Even with brakes on and wheels chalked, when the engines were feathered it would lurch forward, and I've seen it move 5 meters before.
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Firstly, it has been suggested they were on the ground a long time before all this happened. Anyone have an idea of when they landed versus when the engine was shut down? I have every faith in the professionalism of the guys involved and as such would not be suggesting cover up. The quickest way to get fired here is to try and cover anything up!
SOP (NOP) for single engine taxi is, among other things, not to be done on wet or contaminated taxiways. So they did the right thing.
Finally, Landflap, on this occasion, is talking out of his behind. There is no cover up with regards to the MIA incident. The FAA and NTSB have visited, but the investigation has now been handed over to the AAIB so there will be a report in due course. I appreciate some of us don't like facts to get in the way of a good story!
SOP (NOP) for single engine taxi is, among other things, not to be done on wet or contaminated taxiways. So they did the right thing.
Finally, Landflap, on this occasion, is talking out of his behind. There is no cover up with regards to the MIA incident. The FAA and NTSB have visited, but the investigation has now been handed over to the AAIB so there will be a report in due course. I appreciate some of us don't like facts to get in the way of a good story!
Last edited by 320goat; 26th Nov 2015 at 13:57. Reason: Gordomac pointed out the error of my ways.
320Goat, steady on old bean. You might get accused of pointing your backside up-wind too. I suspect Landflap could supply a long-list of cover ups but would be the first to apologise if the report is made public. Let's see eh ?
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Gordomac, too true and I have adjusted my statement accordingly. I don't know what's gone on in the past, but my experiences here in the last year and a half have been pretty positive. I would suggest that things are changing for the better here and long may it continue.
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Hang on - this is a thrust driven aircraft, not a wheel driven car! Slippery taxiway = reduced friction co-efficient = easier taxiing on one engine (assuming enough friction on surface to compensate for asymmetrical thrust through tiller steering angle).
"Unable to to taxi on 1 engine due to slippery taxi ways" does not compute.
"Unable to to taxi on 1 engine due to slippery taxi ways" does not compute.
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ANY Captain of a large jet transport aircraft who shuts down an engine to save fuel & engine life on when conditions are deemed 'Slippery' on the taxyways & apron really shouldn't be in that seat.
Stick to your VERY light twins, Eppy.
Stick to your VERY light twins, Eppy.
I shouldn't think One would have to ask as all you would have to do is hang about most any Pub near an Airport....and be bored to tears listening to the horror of landing on miles of stationary concrete complete with Lights, Markings, and signs and instrument landing system.
Only half a speed-brake
I shouldn't think One would have to ask as all you would have to do is hang about most any Pub near an Airport....and be bored to tears listening to the horror of landing on miles of stationary concrete complete with Lights, Markings, and signs and instrument landing system.
JJ330: in all fairness, it does not say damp, soaked, or wet. Wheter or not relevant to this case is another story ...
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in all fairness, it does not say damp, soaked, or wet. Wheter or not relevant to this case is another story ...
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Boeing single engine taxi FCOM
Boeing might as well add holes in the taxiway to the list. I recall getting stuck with a wheel in a hole after shutting one down in the queue for departure at JFK. Couldn't get her out on one engine and had to restart the other but that took a few minutes.. Wow, how easy it to get ground control mad
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after many years of experience operating light, medium, and heavy twin engine aircraft on low friction surfaces, I cannot comprehend someone finding it acceptable to operate ANY twin on a slippery surface on one engine...
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