Lithium batteries... merely a "mini" explosion??
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Lithium batteries... merely a "mini" explosion??
Cape man thwarts mini explosion on plane - Western Cape | IOL News
Surely this is a major safety issue?
I'm not a pilot (my profile refers) but it appears to my lay mind that this is akin to the headline said to have been contrived by some bored journalists: "Small earthquake in distant little-known country -- hardly anyone killed".
Surely this is a major safety issue?
I'm not a pilot (my profile refers) but it appears to my lay mind that this is akin to the headline said to have been contrived by some bored journalists: "Small earthquake in distant little-known country -- hardly anyone killed".
Last edited by Connetts; 20th Nov 2015 at 09:53. Reason: Sharpen up text
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My house came close to burning down due to a laptop Li-Ion battery pack thermal runaway.
Every time a cell in the battery exploded, it was like a cherry bomb or M-80 going off while at the same time ejecting a hot flaming magma.
Every time a cell in the battery exploded, it was like a cherry bomb or M-80 going off while at the same time ejecting a hot flaming magma.
ExXB - ecigs are even worse as the vaping fluid is highly flammable as well.
Recent client assignment (ironically on Disaster Recovery) nearly had a full LIVE test when one of the staff plugged their ecig into a charger. LiIon battery went and whole unit flew across the floor spreading burning fluid - folks who were there said it was like a mini version of the opening sequence in Apocalyse Now - Napalm in the trees bit.....
Now banned from the building.
Recent client assignment (ironically on Disaster Recovery) nearly had a full LIVE test when one of the staff plugged their ecig into a charger. LiIon battery went and whole unit flew across the floor spreading burning fluid - folks who were there said it was like a mini version of the opening sequence in Apocalyse Now - Napalm in the trees bit.....
Now banned from the building.
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With apologies if this is an impertinent lay person's stupid question on a bulletin board of professionals, may I follow my own posting in the light of wanabee777's posting and the truly alarming video with it?
What exactly is the basis of the commercial aviation industry's policy on lithium batteries?
I have not done a detailed study of the startling results of the google I did, and I don't know how many aircraft were actually destroyed or written off as beyond economic repair or if there has been any loss of life, but there is now quite a string of incidents caused by lithium battery fires. I assume that such an incident in the air must be a matter of the greatest imaginable danger especially if unnoticed, or if attempts to extinguish the fire failed.
There must be hundreds of lithium batteries on many a/c. I doubt whether more than a small fraction in carry-on luggage are checked for their integrity by the security services, eg, by asking passengers to switch on their laptops; and I doubt whether more than an even tinier fraction of the passengers are aware of a hazard (errh.... sorry, that's a dreadful sentence but I'm sure that even pilots can decode that epistemological tapeworm!).
It is my understanding that the impressive safety record of air travel is based on designing and implementing suitable protocols and reactions as rapidly as possible in the light of experience. Even a single instance of danger which has occurred for other reasons (eg, component failure) has been met swiftly by an appropriate remedy within the industry to stop it from recurring, yet the numbers here are mounting in what seems to be silence.
Is it the answer that the IT and aviation industries are now so colossal, interlinked and important that it's more economical to pay insurance policies and hold thumbs?
Or am I succumbing to senile insecurity?
What exactly is the basis of the commercial aviation industry's policy on lithium batteries?
I have not done a detailed study of the startling results of the google I did, and I don't know how many aircraft were actually destroyed or written off as beyond economic repair or if there has been any loss of life, but there is now quite a string of incidents caused by lithium battery fires. I assume that such an incident in the air must be a matter of the greatest imaginable danger especially if unnoticed, or if attempts to extinguish the fire failed.
There must be hundreds of lithium batteries on many a/c. I doubt whether more than a small fraction in carry-on luggage are checked for their integrity by the security services, eg, by asking passengers to switch on their laptops; and I doubt whether more than an even tinier fraction of the passengers are aware of a hazard (errh.... sorry, that's a dreadful sentence but I'm sure that even pilots can decode that epistemological tapeworm!).
It is my understanding that the impressive safety record of air travel is based on designing and implementing suitable protocols and reactions as rapidly as possible in the light of experience. Even a single instance of danger which has occurred for other reasons (eg, component failure) has been met swiftly by an appropriate remedy within the industry to stop it from recurring, yet the numbers here are mounting in what seems to be silence.
Is it the answer that the IT and aviation industries are now so colossal, interlinked and important that it's more economical to pay insurance policies and hold thumbs?
Or am I succumbing to senile insecurity?
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Since I've been retired for almost a year and a half now, I haven't been staying as informed as I should be regarding the transport of Li-Ion batteries.
The following is a link to the U.S. Air Line Pilots Association's (ALPA) position on the matter:
Lithium Batteries
The following is a link to the U.S. Air Line Pilots Association's (ALPA) position on the matter:
Lithium Batteries
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Florida man placed in a coma after e-cigarette explosion
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Is it the answer that the IT and aviation industries are now so colossal, interlinked and important that it's more economical to pay insurance policies and hold thumbs?
The FAA video seems to feature mostly the old 18650 cells that are not used that much anymore in notebook computers. The more recent lithium polymer batteries have higher energy densities and readily adaptable form factors that make them popular in current notebooks, tablets and smart phones. There are numerous videos online of the spectacular demise of these LiPo batteries.
There is a lot of discussion here on Greta's flashlight forum:
Smoke and Fire, Hot Cells and Close Calls - The dangerous side of batteries
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Policies are based on risk analysis.
Not all lithium batteries are the same or pose the same risk. The risk from Lithium-ion is different than the risk from Lithium-metal. E-cigarettes are yet another risk category since they involve non-typical batteries and heating elements.
The risk of a serious accident from typical consumer Lithium-ion batteries installed in devices such as laptops, cell phones, etc., and carried onboard the cabin is extremely low. They are everywhere. With millions of flights (and billions of li-ion carrying passengers) each year, to my knowledge there hasn't been a single accident due to a li-ion battery in carry-on baggage.
Lithium-metal batteries, however, are more risky, especially when they are not installed in a device, shipped in bulk, and placed in the cargo compartment. They are considered Dangerous Goods and there are international regulations governing their shipment on planes.
E-cigarettes use a non-typical battery packaging which make them more prone to failure. They are also easy to overcharge, which damages the battery. (In fact around 80% of e-cigarette fires occurred during charging.) And many e-cigarette smokers tamper (modify) the devices to increase their power output, putting even more stress on the battery.
E-cigarettes are banned from checked luggage and may not be charged in flight. Most airlines also ban their use in flight.
Not all lithium batteries are the same or pose the same risk. The risk from Lithium-ion is different than the risk from Lithium-metal. E-cigarettes are yet another risk category since they involve non-typical batteries and heating elements.
The risk of a serious accident from typical consumer Lithium-ion batteries installed in devices such as laptops, cell phones, etc., and carried onboard the cabin is extremely low. They are everywhere. With millions of flights (and billions of li-ion carrying passengers) each year, to my knowledge there hasn't been a single accident due to a li-ion battery in carry-on baggage.
Lithium-metal batteries, however, are more risky, especially when they are not installed in a device, shipped in bulk, and placed in the cargo compartment. They are considered Dangerous Goods and there are international regulations governing their shipment on planes.
E-cigarettes use a non-typical battery packaging which make them more prone to failure. They are also easy to overcharge, which damages the battery. (In fact around 80% of e-cigarette fires occurred during charging.) And many e-cigarette smokers tamper (modify) the devices to increase their power output, putting even more stress on the battery.
E-cigarettes are banned from checked luggage and may not be charged in flight. Most airlines also ban their use in flight.
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Thanks, Peekay4.
I think that clarifies the laptop etc issue. I had not realised the difference between lithium-ion and lithium-metal, and in fact the ALPA document to which wanabee777 refers actually indicates that there is one.
But shifting focus slightly: even if the flight crew is told that there is hazardous material on board, how likely is it that the knowledge would be useful should the worst happen?
If the crew of the Helderberg* had been told that they had explosives on board, other than refusing to fly what could they have done?
*See
South African Airways Flight 295
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_...ays_Flight_295
According to one account, the captain was told of the cargo and when he refused to fly was told that he would be fired. He flew.......
Alleged cause of Helderberg plane exposed
Former SAA consultant Allan Dexter claimes the plane was carrying rocket fuel and ammunition.
Alleged cause of Helderberg plane exposed
I think that clarifies the laptop etc issue. I had not realised the difference between lithium-ion and lithium-metal, and in fact the ALPA document to which wanabee777 refers actually indicates that there is one.
But shifting focus slightly: even if the flight crew is told that there is hazardous material on board, how likely is it that the knowledge would be useful should the worst happen?
If the crew of the Helderberg* had been told that they had explosives on board, other than refusing to fly what could they have done?
*See
South African Airways Flight 295
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_...ays_Flight_295
According to one account, the captain was told of the cargo and when he refused to fly was told that he would be fired. He flew.......
Alleged cause of Helderberg plane exposed
Former SAA consultant Allan Dexter claimes the plane was carrying rocket fuel and ammunition.
Alleged cause of Helderberg plane exposed
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It is not the lithium that burns but the cathode material, there are very much safer alternatives, one well developed technology is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lith...sphate_battery
There is a 14% power to weight cost BUT increased cycle life and nearly constant discharge voltage. These batteries dont burn!. However like any power source they to hold significant energy. Unlike the other chemistrys these one do not have "thermal runaway" so cell failures dont cascade. Fantastic batteries but unfortunatly currently the subject of multiple licensing litigations !
There is a 14% power to weight cost BUT increased cycle life and nearly constant discharge voltage. These batteries dont burn!. However like any power source they to hold significant energy. Unlike the other chemistrys these one do not have "thermal runaway" so cell failures dont cascade. Fantastic batteries but unfortunatly currently the subject of multiple licensing litigations !
