Loganair in Aberdeen emergency landing
None but a blockhead
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: London, UK
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As I said yesterday in the Loganair thread in the Airlines, Airports and Routes forum, I flew CAL-GLA the day before the Aberdeen incident, and we had to reroute via Tiree because another a/c had gone tech. Not as dramatic (although the pax who missed their connections at GLA weren't happy) but that's two inops in two days, one in flight. on a small fleet.
The Highlands and Islands routes are frequently rough - the GLA-CAL flight I was on on the Monday had a very, er, exciting landing, so I don't doubt that the maintenance load is challenging to manage. But it all feels as if Loganair is operating very close to the edge, commercially and practically, and that's a really uncomfortable environment for everyone. Too many holes in this particular cheese.
The Highlands and Islands routes are frequently rough - the GLA-CAL flight I was on on the Monday had a very, er, exciting landing, so I don't doubt that the maintenance load is challenging to manage. But it all feels as if Loganair is operating very close to the edge, commercially and practically, and that's a really uncomfortable environment for everyone. Too many holes in this particular cheese.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scotland mainly, rather than at home.
Posts: 387
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Kerry Eire
Age: 76
Posts: 609
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've no knowledge or experience of Loganair but the descriptions of the management style outlined above is endemic across companies large and small. Bad enough for customers of retail, utility and manufacturing companies, worrying in companies involved in transportation, especially an airline.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Scotland
Age: 80
Posts: 451
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am sorry to read all this criticism of Loganair as this was the company that I started work with back in the early 60's. At that time it was managed by the late Duncan MacKintosh who was an exceptional man in many respects. The fleet was two Aztecs and a Cherokee 6. After nearly 50 years I still look back at the fun I had for the 2 years I was there,big fun factor - very low salary!
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: North Up
Posts: 489
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When a company, any company, starts to lose the confidence of both its own staff and that of its customers, it takes an unusually competent management to turn the supertanker through 180° before things come to grief.
Does Loganair have such a Management? If so, now is the right time for them to emerge from the shadows and show what good they can do as never before.
Does Loganair have such a Management? If so, now is the right time for them to emerge from the shadows and show what good they can do as never before.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scotland mainly, rather than at home.
Posts: 387
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When a company, any company, starts to lose the confidence of both its own staff and that of its customers, it takes an unusually competent management to turn the supertanker through 180° before things come to grief.
Does Loganair have such a Management? If so, now is the right time for them to emerge from the shadows and show what good they can do as never before.
Does Loganair have such a Management? If so, now is the right time for them to emerge from the shadows and show what good they can do as never before.
When did Loganair begin their slide into the trough of gashness? When I worked in Scotland in the '80s and '90s they seemed very well regarded.
Could it be they were poisoned by Suckling Airways when they took them over - a company that beyond all others that I am aware of (and I doubt any others could have been even a quarter as bad) deserve all the epithets directed at Loganair above and then some?
Could it be they were poisoned by Suckling Airways when they took them over - a company that beyond all others that I am aware of (and I doubt any others could have been even a quarter as bad) deserve all the epithets directed at Loganair above and then some?
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Scotland
Age: 37
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having left this company myself over a year ago (along with many other engineers) the biggest problem is with the management. When Scott Grier left, the company really changed from being a really enjoyable place to work to being dire. The Bond brothers placed the wrong people into management positions and also people were promoted into positions that are not capable of doing their jobs . I spent a year hoping things would get better as I actually didn't want to leave (as someone mentioned above everyone has a soft spot for them) however it became intolerable and left along with many others. Unfortunately until the management take their heads out of the sand and realise they are the issue nothing will change, they will continue to loose staff and also fail to attract and retain new people. 
I really hope it is sorted out because it could be and should be a great place to work with the right leadership.
I really hope it is sorted out because it could be and should be a great place to work with the right leadership.
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: UK
Age: 67
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Could it be they were poisoned by Suckling Airways when they took them over - a company that beyond all others that I am aware of (and I doubt any others could have been even a quarter as bad) deserve all the epithets directed at Loganair above and then some?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Loganscare flight BE6916 lost an engine on the way to Sumburgh today.
Do you have any idea how many flights have to shut down an engine on an almost daily basis?
Incident: American MD83 near Charlotte on Nov 10th 2015, engine problem
Incident: British Airways B763 near London on Nov 9th 2015, engine shut down in flight
Incident: First AT42 near Churchill on Nov 7th 2015, engine shut down in flight
Incident: American A319 at Philadelphia on Nov 6th 2015, engine shut down in flight
And on and on it goes ...
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scotland mainly, rather than at home.
Posts: 387
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is somehow news?
Do you have any idea how many flights have to shut down an engine on an almost daily basis?
Do you have any idea how many flights have to shut down an engine on an almost daily basis?
And yes, somehow this is news.
Duck, you are not in a position to offer, compare or remark on "perceptions" as your astonishingly naiive response demonstrates. Do you, as SLF, really imagine the schmoozing you receive in the cabin from a single (even from a hundred) flights gives you even the tiniest insight into the company's operational ability, standards, professipnal integrity, maintenance, regulatory observance or overall likelyhood of killing passengers? Strewth!
This is, after all, a Professional Pilot's forum, not a comfy SLF opinion forum..."Perceptions" were not part of my remarks. More like "Observations".
This is, after all, a Professional Pilot's forum, not a comfy SLF opinion forum..."Perceptions" were not part of my remarks. More like "Observations".
Last edited by Wageslave; 13th Nov 2015 at 21:53.
de minimus non curat lex
As WAGESLAVE points out, this a forum for professionals, and not for hysterical comments from ill informed amateurs who simply fail to contribute "added value" to the discussion.
Sure, there have been problems, more than what any AOC holder would wish to experience. Undoubtedly the Regulator through their FOI will have had discussions. Questions have been asked by no less than the First Minister in parliament. The pressure is on management, and I suspect the brothers, to ensure that Loganair are put back on a very even keel. Probably an expensive business.
As to how the Tiger copes with this pressure will be interesting.........
Sure, there have been problems, more than what any AOC holder would wish to experience. Undoubtedly the Regulator through their FOI will have had discussions. Questions have been asked by no less than the First Minister in parliament. The pressure is on management, and I suspect the brothers, to ensure that Loganair are put back on a very even keel. Probably an expensive business.
As to how the Tiger copes with this pressure will be interesting.........
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: UK
Age: 67
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Duck, you are not in a position to offer, compare or remark on "perceptions" as your astonishingly naiive response demonstrates. Do you, as SLF, really imagine the schmoozing you receive in the cabin from a single (even from a hundred) flights gives you even the tiniest insight into the company's operational ability, standards, professipnal integrity, maintenance, regulatory observance or overall likelyhood of killing passengers? Strewth!
Quite simply I enjoyed that flight and am grateful to that crew. I'm sorry they were suffering at the hands of cowboys and grateful to them that my flight ended well rather than badly. I put my trust in them and was rewarded, like almost all other SLF almost all of the time.
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: UK
Age: 67
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How many household name airlines are also cowboy outfits protected by the daily efforts of professional crew? SLF are rarely in a position to know.
My dad was a maintenance foreman for British European Airways. I've flown a lot with BEA, BOAC and BA, and my over-riding impression is of a solid, safe and reliable operation, if perhaps not the grooviest or most spectacular. M&S rather than Harvey Nichols, and that suits me fine. Earlier this year I round-tripped from London to Edinburgh, flying from LCY in a BA-branded E-190, an aircraft and flight I thought exceptional and thoroughly enjoyed. I returned to LHR on an A320: a plain-vanilla experience. Is CityFlyer better, comparable or worse operationally than BA? I'm not in a position to know, or easily to find out. I put my trust in the crew and wasn't let down.
And that is the thinking SLF's problem. I don't mind forking out a few more quid for a proper Nigel. Question is, am I getting one, or is that Nigel and equivalent backup actually available to me?
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Planet Claire
Posts: 581
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I used to work for Loganair, albeit a few years ago.
I think that they have found that replacing the airmanship that their Captains had when I worked there, with the tick box, "SOP-for-everything" style that's virtually mandatory in the uk these days, has proved trickier than they expected.
I think LC figured that they would be able to pay even less by writing masses of new SOPs, and trusting in the rules to look after the crews. Got to be cheaper than employing very experienced pilots and engineers, right?
I'm sure that's not the whole story, but I hear that their ops inspector is spending a lot of time with them these days.
I think that they have found that replacing the airmanship that their Captains had when I worked there, with the tick box, "SOP-for-everything" style that's virtually mandatory in the uk these days, has proved trickier than they expected.
I think LC figured that they would be able to pay even less by writing masses of new SOPs, and trusting in the rules to look after the crews. Got to be cheaper than employing very experienced pilots and engineers, right?
I'm sure that's not the whole story, but I hear that their ops inspector is spending a lot of time with them these days.
None but a blockhead
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: London, UK
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
“With Maurice in post, the director operations role is now a permanent position..."
!
Is it normal in aviation management to NOT have a permanent Dir Ops? Or do smaller outfits fold it into another directorship?
!
Is it normal in aviation management to NOT have a permanent Dir Ops? Or do smaller outfits fold it into another directorship?
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scotland mainly, rather than at home.
Posts: 387
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The previous title was before they ousted Phil Preston who took over from Jonathan Hinkles, the post of Chief Operations Officer. There's a DFO too. In fact there's a manager for more or less everything. They even had a punctuality "Champion" at one stage, if you ever saw a chalice full of snake venom.