HS 125 Crash Dakar (GOOY)
The CEIBA aircraft (737-800) after the alleged incident went on to fly past Cotonou (intended destination) and landed in Malabo ??
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A physical collision is not the only possible cause of damage.
Both aircraft would have been travelling at around M0.8 pushing a shockwave in front and dragging wake turbulence behind.
At a closing speed of up to M1.6 depending on relative course a close encounter could do a lot of damage, especially to the smaller aircraft.
ATC in most of africa is a joke and something like this was just waiting to happen. At the speeds involved there would have been little chance to see and avoid.
Both aircraft would have been travelling at around M0.8 pushing a shockwave in front and dragging wake turbulence behind.
At a closing speed of up to M1.6 depending on relative course a close encounter could do a lot of damage, especially to the smaller aircraft.
ATC in most of africa is a joke and something like this was just waiting to happen. At the speeds involved there would have been little chance to see and avoid.
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As African ATC goes, Dakar is actually pretty decent.
Regardless, you would expect both aircraft to have a functioning TCAS.
Off topic perhaps but CEIBA is notorious for not sticking to their published itinerary. I have heard of the Bata-to-Malabo flight being re-routed in mid-air to Mongomo at the call of some VIP's who then kept the plane waiting on the tarmac for hours before taking the trouble to actually show up...
Regardless, you would expect both aircraft to have a functioning TCAS.
Off topic perhaps but CEIBA is notorious for not sticking to their published itinerary. I have heard of the Bata-to-Malabo flight being re-routed in mid-air to Mongomo at the call of some VIP's who then kept the plane waiting on the tarmac for hours before taking the trouble to actually show up...
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What height was the HS125 at when it overshot?
One would assume that if lost pressurization suddenly after a hit from another aircraft, you would descend the aircraft?
If it was a gradual depressurization, then you would have expected the pilots to get on the radio asking what the heck just about ran them over...
One would assume that if lost pressurization suddenly after a hit from another aircraft, you would descend the aircraft?
If it was a gradual depressurization, then you would have expected the pilots to get on the radio asking what the heck just about ran them over...
Thread Starter
Mid-air confirmation
The Minister of tourism and Air transport of Senegal just released a statement, saying that the Equatorial Guinea authorities upon inspection of the CEIBA aircraft are confirming that a collision occurred (Damaged wing on the 738)
Link in french.
Le rapport du pilote de la Ceiba confirme l'abordage
Link in french.
Le rapport du pilote de la Ceiba confirme l'abordage
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A few points : The collison apparently occurred in Bamako FIR , so under control of Bamako ATC, not Senegal, so no need to mention Senegal ATC.
Reading the info like you do, the non-radar coverage is not the issue, even under procedural control ( like most of Africa is) 2 aircraft should not be at the same altitude at the same time, but if they did this is not necessarily due to ATC : levels busts, direct or avoidance tracks taken without advising ATC , etc do occur too. Let's wait a bit before aportioning blame and responsibilities here.
Looks like at first that at least one of the TCAS was inop, or not on. ( a transponder issue maybe )
Possibly the 737 wing hit the cockpit , disabled both pilots but a/c kept on flying , speciulation at this stage. The HS25 is in the water, will be difficult to retreive I guess, :" Only" 7 pax, French media not mentioning it much this week end, so the chances we'll never know are high I would say
I would love to see and hear the reports of both pilots of the 737 though...
Reading the info like you do, the non-radar coverage is not the issue, even under procedural control ( like most of Africa is) 2 aircraft should not be at the same altitude at the same time, but if they did this is not necessarily due to ATC : levels busts, direct or avoidance tracks taken without advising ATC , etc do occur too. Let's wait a bit before aportioning blame and responsibilities here.
Looks like at first that at least one of the TCAS was inop, or not on. ( a transponder issue maybe )
Possibly the 737 wing hit the cockpit , disabled both pilots but a/c kept on flying , speciulation at this stage. The HS25 is in the water, will be difficult to retreive I guess, :" Only" 7 pax, French media not mentioning it much this week end, so the chances we'll never know are high I would say
I would love to see and hear the reports of both pilots of the 737 though...
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Originally Posted by akaSylvia
More info here, including details of the CEIB (CEL 071) Boeing 737 that reported the issue.
"L'avion SENEGAL AIR a croisé un vol de la compagnie CEIBA" (ANACIM)
"L'avion SENEGAL AIR a croisé un vol de la compagnie CEIBA" (ANACIM)
I had a look at the map in the area. the 737 must have been flying along Airway UA601, which has the following route: Dakar-Bamako-Tamale-cotonou-malabo. All eastbound.
The HS125 was probably flying ouagadougou UG860 bamako UA601 Dakar, west bound.
FL 350 is an eastbound level, so my GUESS is that the 737 was at least at an appropriate FL for its flight.
Perhaps the HS125 was climbing through FL 350..... Cruising at that level would not be appropriate.
The HS125 was probably flying ouagadougou UG860 bamako UA601 Dakar, west bound.
FL 350 is an eastbound level, so my GUESS is that the 737 was at least at an appropriate FL for its flight.
Perhaps the HS125 was climbing through FL 350..... Cruising at that level would not be appropriate.
Collision occurred at 1813z. Which means during daylight hours, just before sunset. (Sunset on the ground at ouagadougou is at 1815z at the moment.) As the HS125 was flying westbound, they were probably looking into the setting sun.
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As the HS125 was flying westbound, they were probably looking into the setting sun.
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ATC Watcher...
I'm not sure why you conclude the collision occurred in Mali's airspace, and therefore there is "no need to mention Senegal ATC".
The information we have so far (which is admittedly very little indeed) includes a Lat and Long position given by the Senegalese which puts the B737 in Senegal's airspace when the two aircraft "crossed".
The Senegalese statement also says the CEIBA B737 was "about to be handed off" to Bamako.
So, it is more likely the collision ocurred in Senegal's airspace, though that is not certain of course at this point.
I'm not sure why you conclude the collision occurred in Mali's airspace, and therefore there is "no need to mention Senegal ATC".
The information we have so far (which is admittedly very little indeed) includes a Lat and Long position given by the Senegalese which puts the B737 in Senegal's airspace when the two aircraft "crossed".
The Senegalese statement also says the CEIBA B737 was "about to be handed off" to Bamako.
So, it is more likely the collision ocurred in Senegal's airspace, though that is not certain of course at this point.
CEIBA seems to have a nice and steady reputation amongst the "not so famous" African airlines...even its Chief Pilot was recently awarded an FAA compliment:
FAA recognizes Alejandro Jose Regner
FAA recognizes Alejandro Jose Regner
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grizzled :
I had received this info yesterday and was expecting it plus some more to come officially today, but it did not .So like you I am becoming sceptic now. The position given is more or less at the border, so who was controlling who at that moment is the key, because as you know transfers or comms and control rarely occur exactly at the border .
I had received this info yesterday and was expecting it plus some more to come officially today, but it did not .So like you I am becoming sceptic now. The position given is more or less at the border, so who was controlling who at that moment is the key, because as you know transfers or comms and control rarely occur exactly at the border .
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If the avherald article posted by 400drvr is correct with the position at which the collision occurred then they were probably in IMC, clouds up to at least 40,000ft there and quite a few CBs within a 15km radius.
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CEIBA seems to have a nice and steady reputation amongst the "not so famous" African airlines...even its Chief Pilot was recently awarded an FAA compliment:
FAA recognizes Alejandro Jose Regner
FAA recognizes Alejandro Jose Regner
I suggest you read the article before you share it...
FAA compliment? You mean getting his ATP?
The website you linked merely fishes for airmen certificates and then attaches the info to some random article. It is a horrible attempt at clickbait.
Speaking of the steady reputation at CEIBA....
Now dont tell us "CEIBA receives prestigious European Union black list award"
The president purchased two 777-200LRs. His personal aircraft operates under the Equatorial Guinea register. The other frame is operated by Portuguese operator White Airways and registered in Portugal, in order to circumvent the EU ban for the Malabo - Madrid flights.
Class act operation!
HKD...i know that much better than you may think..believe me.
BTW...even if you do not agree, my post wasnt so silly at it seems to be.
Peace.
BTW...even if you do not agree, my post wasnt so silly at it seems to be.
Peace.