WSJ article: On Asia’s flights, potentially dangerous mistakes go unreported
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WSJ article: On Asia’s flights, potentially dangerous mistakes go unreported
From the Wall Street Journal, July 14, 2015, front page(A1) article titled "On Asia’s flights, potentially dangerous mistakes go unreported" :
On Asia?s Flights, Potentially Dangerous Mistakes Go Unreported - WSJ
On Asia?s Flights, Potentially Dangerous Mistakes Go Unreported - WSJ
Last edited by airman1900; 14th Jul 2015 at 11:36. Reason: Published date added
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No surprise that the aviation region with the largest number of flights has by far the lowest number of fatalities.
We're doing something right in 'North' America.
We're doing something right in 'North' America.
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To be fair here, Europe is probably defined to include eastern countries like Russia and Ukraine. If only western Europe were measured, I suspect their results would look quite similar to those from North America.
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If only western Europe were measured, I suspect their results would look quite similar to those from North America.
US/Canada is coming up on 14 years since a single passenger life was lost on any mainline flight (domestic or international).
Western Europe?
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"US/Canada is coming up on 14 years since a single passenger life was lost on any mainline flight"
Which was nothing else but pure luck in at least 4 landing incidents (AA, Delta, Air Canada, Hudson)...
Which was nothing else but pure luck in at least 4 landing incidents (AA, Delta, Air Canada, Hudson)...
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The story here is about a gross under-reporting in Asia. It is the lessons of the developed aviation nations that a Just Culture and a Reporting Culture leads to a reduction in incidents and accidents.
Asia is going the opposite way. Not reporting almost any incidents or accidents (or near-incidents) thus leading to a false impression of safety.
I posit that by and far the primary reason for this under-reporting is the unfettered rise in the punishment culture. Almost all airlines are party to the ICAO documents encouraging reporting culture and decrying punishments for unintentional or non negligent behaviour yet they punish staff regardless.
International training and regulatory organizations have turned a blind eye to this and the resulting effects.
I have first-hand experience of this culture and it is now becoming difficult to hide the statistically backed results of breeding such a culture.
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...unishment.html
Ever more advanced and accessible QAR/FDR/CVR/FDM/FOQA systems are helping drive this boom in a quick and easily disguised as scientific method of supporting such practices.
Pilot groups need to stand up to this abuse and confront these nation's regulators in our international forums regarding punishment and safety.
Asia is going the opposite way. Not reporting almost any incidents or accidents (or near-incidents) thus leading to a false impression of safety.
I posit that by and far the primary reason for this under-reporting is the unfettered rise in the punishment culture. Almost all airlines are party to the ICAO documents encouraging reporting culture and decrying punishments for unintentional or non negligent behaviour yet they punish staff regardless.
International training and regulatory organizations have turned a blind eye to this and the resulting effects.
I have first-hand experience of this culture and it is now becoming difficult to hide the statistically backed results of breeding such a culture.
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...unishment.html
Ever more advanced and accessible QAR/FDR/CVR/FDM/FOQA systems are helping drive this boom in a quick and easily disguised as scientific method of supporting such practices.
Pilot groups need to stand up to this abuse and confront these nation's regulators in our international forums regarding punishment and safety.
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Luck is a four letter word
Which was nothing else but pure luck in at least 4 landing incidents (AA, Delta, Air Canada, Hudson)...
Reference the Hudson incident, colliding with the geese was a result of risk management policies. North American pilots are all aware of the migration paths of birds. There is inherent risk in operations during certain seasons of the year. Risk managers recognized that collisions were inevitable but that the risk of both engines being rendered inoperative was negligible. Sully found the "negligible" part of the analysis and responded in a manner than all of us can only hope to emulate if we encounter an extreme situation.
We all make errors (anyone who does not acknowledge this should NOT be aircrew). Errors lead to various consequences, some more serious than others. Identifying and mitigating these errors is an important part of our job, even after the commencement of a disastrous sequence of events. Leave trusting in luck to the gamblers and stay away from those carriers that include it as part of their operations policy.
Fly safe.
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re: Luck is a four letter word
I think the reference to luck and the Hudson River accident was that there was no loss of life, not the amazing airmanship shown by the crew.
Any landing that doesn't quite fall into a "standard" category has the potential to cause a death just by the varying ages and abilities of the passengers on board.
Any landing that doesn't quite fall into a "standard" category has the potential to cause a death just by the varying ages and abilities of the passengers on board.
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Said nothing about the execution but e.g to have the Hudson itself around was luck. Any suggestion how the superior risk management policies of North American operators prevented having fatalities in case of the succesful landing of the Air Canada aircraft?
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There have definitely been some close calls in the two northern North American countries. in the past few years. And 1 fatal 737 crash as well about 4 years ago. But, I think there have been close calls in every area.
I do appreciate the reports that regularly get published in places like Australia that allow us to read and learn from errors that are made. It appears that some countries are not publishing reports to any great extent.
Find me one accident report from mainland China. It is too bad as this could prevent other accident. I can think of a couple of MD-11 accidents(Korean and Avient) both foreign carriers yet no report for us to read and learn from.
I do appreciate the reports that regularly get published in places like Australia that allow us to read and learn from errors that are made. It appears that some countries are not publishing reports to any great extent.
Find me one accident report from mainland China. It is too bad as this could prevent other accident. I can think of a couple of MD-11 accidents(Korean and Avient) both foreign carriers yet no report for us to read and learn from.
Find me one accident report from mainland China. It is too bad as this could prevent other accident. I can think of a couple of MD-11 accidents(Korean and Avient) both foreign carriers yet no report for us to read and learn from.
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Asiana 214? Or doesn't that count?
A foreign operator's accident within US or Canada DOES NOT count. (unless possibly it was the result of our ATC or other system failure. . . Someone help me out here!)
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Asiana's AOC wasn't issued by the FAA.
Anyway, congrats to the US!
In Europe the authorities are too busy to throw out the baby with the bathwater; killing off the unions, forcing pilots to work as 'independent' contractors, and instilling a fear and mobbing culture.
All in the name of "safety" of course!
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To be fair:
There is a huge volume of seagoing passenger ferry traffic between islands in SEA. What is their safety record in comparison to like ferries on Europe or North America?
And how does that comparison stack up against the equivalent air safety statistics?
There is a huge volume of seagoing passenger ferry traffic between islands in SEA. What is their safety record in comparison to like ferries on Europe or North America?
And how does that comparison stack up against the equivalent air safety statistics?
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Kudos!
Hudson, luck, really? So in your definition, every SUCCESSFUL flight is purely luck? We often discuss the swiss cheese model to envision how we ARRIVE at an accident but the model can be extended to arrive at FATAL accidents. There are several slices of cheese between accident and fatal accident the very last, possibly, being LUCK. I would suggest that airframe design, training, experience, and ability to recover had much more to do with the outcome of these accidents than LUCK.
Reference the Hudson incident, colliding with the geese was a result of risk management policies. North American pilots are all aware of the migration paths of birds. There is inherent risk in operations during certain seasons of the year. Risk managers recognized that collisions were inevitable but that the risk of both engines being rendered inoperative was negligible. Sully found the "negligible" part of the analysis and responded in a manner than all of us can only hope to emulate if we encounter an extreme situation.
We all make errors (anyone who does not acknowledge this should NOT be aircrew). Errors lead to various consequences, some more serious than others. Identifying and mitigating these errors is an important part of our job, even after the commencement of a disastrous sequence of events. Leave trusting in luck to the gamblers and stay away from those carriers that include it as part of their operations policy.
Fly safe.
Reference the Hudson incident, colliding with the geese was a result of risk management policies. North American pilots are all aware of the migration paths of birds. There is inherent risk in operations during certain seasons of the year. Risk managers recognized that collisions were inevitable but that the risk of both engines being rendered inoperative was negligible. Sully found the "negligible" part of the analysis and responded in a manner than all of us can only hope to emulate if we encounter an extreme situation.
We all make errors (anyone who does not acknowledge this should NOT be aircrew). Errors lead to various consequences, some more serious than others. Identifying and mitigating these errors is an important part of our job, even after the commencement of a disastrous sequence of events. Leave trusting in luck to the gamblers and stay away from those carriers that include it as part of their operations policy.
Fly safe.
One of the most polite, succinct posts I've ever read on Pprune.
Thanks!
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"So we ignore the Colgan Air Buffalo and the Comair Lexington CRJ crashes? "
Yes and one more that you must have missed among commuters.
My original statement was specific: "passengers on any mainline US/Canadian carrier".
Regardless of how anyone wants to skin that cat it is quite impressive.
I remember the (not so far distant) days where two biggies a year was about the norm and even the flying was the safest form of transportation.
As far as luck, luck (good or bad) is part of most equations in life, but to even hint that neat 14 years has luck as any appreciative factor is Ludacris.
Good work by crews, controllers and frame makers is the answer
Remarkable statistics and some the Asian region is far from, but hopefully will rise to someday.
Yes and one more that you must have missed among commuters.
My original statement was specific: "passengers on any mainline US/Canadian carrier".
Regardless of how anyone wants to skin that cat it is quite impressive.
I remember the (not so far distant) days where two biggies a year was about the norm and even the flying was the safest form of transportation.
As far as luck, luck (good or bad) is part of most equations in life, but to even hint that neat 14 years has luck as any appreciative factor is Ludacris.
Good work by crews, controllers and frame makers is the answer
Remarkable statistics and some the Asian region is far from, but hopefully will rise to someday.
