Delta 747-400 takes a beating over China
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Yangon(Yangon) airspace many years ago...Wx ahead and deviation,right of track (the best option),requested,...no reply..requested again,many times,until,left of track became the only option..
Informed that left of track was not available,and to deviate right only...
By now,there was a killer CB immediately to our right,and ahead...
My reply was that 180 degree turn,or left deviation were the only options possible...still no sensible instruction from ATC,so,began my left turn,around the weather....nothing more said...and we survived...
I like the idea of PP holding though(suggestion of).bound to illicit some extra thought from ground!
Edited addition...
What is the immediate threat facing you?..entering a CB with potential vertical currents of up to 150 kts!...how much yellow/red return..guess it all comes down to this.....you need to be the crew on the day....
Informed that left of track was not available,and to deviate right only...
By now,there was a killer CB immediately to our right,and ahead...
My reply was that 180 degree turn,or left deviation were the only options possible...still no sensible instruction from ATC,so,began my left turn,around the weather....nothing more said...and we survived...
I like the idea of PP holding though(suggestion of).bound to illicit some extra thought from ground!
Edited addition...
What is the immediate threat facing you?..entering a CB with potential vertical currents of up to 150 kts!...how much yellow/red return..guess it all comes down to this.....you need to be the crew on the day....
Last edited by Yaw String; 29th Jun 2015 at 16:05.
It's one thing to do your own thing over a country with limited military power, and it is another to do it over the likes of China, whom one would suspect has the kit and the cojones to use it against an intruder flying through military airspace, even if just avoiding weather.
They certainly seem happy enough blatently hacking all and sundry on the internet for military gain. After all, if they do end up shooting you down in error, what is the rest of the world going to do? Boycott them?
They certainly seem happy enough blatently hacking all and sundry on the internet for military gain. After all, if they do end up shooting you down in error, what is the rest of the world going to do? Boycott them?
Some years ago I had a Turkish airliner in front of us do the PPos hold thing while waiting for clearance for weather deviation in Chinese airspace . Very inconvenient as we had to deviate around both him and the weather. That ten minute spacing ended very quickly. Controller got a bit excited too.
Fixed the landing order into PEK though, so always a silver lining I guess.
Fixed the landing order into PEK though, so always a silver lining I guess.
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How many foreign airliners have actually been shot down over China?
China has been diligent at not shooting down either foreign or domestic airliners recently, after CX VR-HEU. Kudos to them. Better track record than the US and many others these days. Nevertheless, I wouldn't want to be the one to test my luck
China has been diligent at not shooting down either foreign or domestic airliners recently, after CX VR-HEU. Kudos to them. Better track record than the US and many others these days. Nevertheless, I wouldn't want to be the one to test my luck
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Thread Starter
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Status update on N664US
The aircraft is still at RKSI, Delta purchased the two former Singapore Airlines Cargo 747-412BCFs. 9V-SCA/B last year, and have continued to store both aircraft at Victorville, CA (SQC already had them there). Both frames are used as spare part donors for DLs 747-451 fleet.
Various parts (mainly wing panels) have been taken from -SCA/B the past few days and are being shipped to RKSI in order to make N664US fit for a ferry, unclear at this point if it will be to KMSP for return to service work or to KMHV to be immediately retired. All PW4056s have been boroscoped and were reported undamaged.
One of the previously three stored -451s at KMHV, N671US was ferried to KMSP a few days back to be immediately prepared for return to service. All three aircraft were stored in such a manner to be returned to service within a few days if necessary, great fleet/contingency planning.
These three frames were stored last year as Delta has begun to slowly retire the once 16 strong B744 fleet, the first three were chosen based off their vicinity to the next heavy maintenance checks.
Various parts (mainly wing panels) have been taken from -SCA/B the past few days and are being shipped to RKSI in order to make N664US fit for a ferry, unclear at this point if it will be to KMSP for return to service work or to KMHV to be immediately retired. All PW4056s have been boroscoped and were reported undamaged.
One of the previously three stored -451s at KMHV, N671US was ferried to KMSP a few days back to be immediately prepared for return to service. All three aircraft were stored in such a manner to be returned to service within a few days if necessary, great fleet/contingency planning.
These three frames were stored last year as Delta has begun to slowly retire the once 16 strong B744 fleet, the first three were chosen based off their vicinity to the next heavy maintenance checks.
I while back I heard a Cargolux aircraft request headings around weather, first left which was denied, then right also denied. His next call was "PAN PAN PAN"
In Australia a Virgin 737 requested deviation around a CB which was denied IIRC he started to turn but was informed by ATC that he was going to have a breakdown in separation with another aircraft, he ended up going through the CB instead.
Tough choices, deviated without clearance and risk possible collision or being shot down. Continue into bad weather with results like this.
BTW Vietnam is conducting missile firing in the South China Sea at the moment and ATC instructions are to be strictly followed.
In Australia a Virgin 737 requested deviation around a CB which was denied IIRC he started to turn but was informed by ATC that he was going to have a breakdown in separation with another aircraft, he ended up going through the CB instead.
Tough choices, deviated without clearance and risk possible collision or being shot down. Continue into bad weather with results like this.
BTW Vietnam is conducting missile firing in the South China Sea at the moment and ATC instructions are to be strictly followed.
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Where is all this rubbish about being shot down in China if you deviate coming from?
The civilian airspace is basically the airway everything else you can class as military.
If you cannot get the weather avoidance either hold in your present position or declare an emergency weather deviation. That then allows the civilian controller a "get out" to his military counterpart.
The civilian airspace is basically the airway everything else you can class as military.
If you cannot get the weather avoidance either hold in your present position or declare an emergency weather deviation. That then allows the civilian controller a "get out" to his military counterpart.
Last edited by iceman50; 30th Jun 2015 at 13:34. Reason: spelling
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Exactly and yet we have DEPTRAI not wishing to chance his luck and would , presumably, slam into a CB. Nothing to do with "Willy Waving" ole son, just pure airmanship, Command authority and awareness of what fearsome responsibility we are charged with. It is why we get paid these vast sums isn't it ?
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Aha..I believe that " airmanship" is to be included in the next ATPL syllabus,
Until then,however,............just remember AirFrance.....and don't go there,at least,not with me on board....something that Iberia has just learned,into Linate,15th May...A320.
Until then,however,............just remember AirFrance.....and don't go there,at least,not with me on board....something that Iberia has just learned,into Linate,15th May...A320.
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May I meekly point out: it is possible they hit a hail shaft many miles from the CB radar signature. I am reminded of the Valujet DC-9 that hit hail external to the clouds going from ATL to Chattanooga many years ago.
"Between 10,000 and 12,000 feet, the flight was cleared to continue the climb to 23,000 feet. At that time, the crew asked for and received a 330-degree heading to remain clear of weather. The pilots stated that they were in visual meteorological conditions at this time and that their radar showed a light area of precipitation west of the line of weather. They stated that their radar also showed an approximately 10-mile gap between two storm cells in the line of weather and that, through this gap, they were able to see that no adverse weather conditions were on the other side.
"The flight crewmembers reported that as they proceeded through the gap, they observed an egg-sized piece of hail hit the center windshield, causing its outer pane to shatter. At the same time, they began experiencing turbulence that lasted about 10 seconds. They stated that approximately 1 to 2 seconds after the encounter with the first piece of hail, the airplane encountered significant hail, which lasted about 3 to 5 seconds and shattered the outer panes of the captain's and first officer's windshields. Both pilots stated that the hail caused significant damage to the skin of the airplane but that no control problems were noted. They stated the nose radome cover was torn off and that the noise level in the cockpit was high. They also stated that the airspeed indication was zero and the altimeter indications were erratic."
http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20001211X10040&ntsbno=DCA98MA045&akey=1
"Between 10,000 and 12,000 feet, the flight was cleared to continue the climb to 23,000 feet. At that time, the crew asked for and received a 330-degree heading to remain clear of weather. The pilots stated that they were in visual meteorological conditions at this time and that their radar showed a light area of precipitation west of the line of weather. They stated that their radar also showed an approximately 10-mile gap between two storm cells in the line of weather and that, through this gap, they were able to see that no adverse weather conditions were on the other side.
"The flight crewmembers reported that as they proceeded through the gap, they observed an egg-sized piece of hail hit the center windshield, causing its outer pane to shatter. At the same time, they began experiencing turbulence that lasted about 10 seconds. They stated that approximately 1 to 2 seconds after the encounter with the first piece of hail, the airplane encountered significant hail, which lasted about 3 to 5 seconds and shattered the outer panes of the captain's and first officer's windshields. Both pilots stated that the hail caused significant damage to the skin of the airplane but that no control problems were noted. They stated the nose radome cover was torn off and that the noise level in the cockpit was high. They also stated that the airspeed indication was zero and the altimeter indications were erratic."
http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20001211X10040&ntsbno=DCA98MA045&akey=1
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What a weak commander
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Accident: Delta B744 over China on Jun 17th 2015, hail strike
They have photos of weather imagery and flight track.
They have photos of weather imagery and flight track.
Something to consider wrt wx dev in China.
If you can only get a clearance for deviation of 5 miles for example, it doesnt mean you cant take 7 or 8 or 9. What is cleared over the radio is often different to the lattitude they actually permit you to have before they pipe up and question you.
its better than busting a radome.
If you can only get a clearance for deviation of 5 miles for example, it doesnt mean you cant take 7 or 8 or 9. What is cleared over the radio is often different to the lattitude they actually permit you to have before they pipe up and question you.
its better than busting a radome.
Jesus, were you there? Do you know all the variables? Have you ever been faced with this exact situation? God, how I love flying with @*#*¥$ that get everything right
Go around the weather, don't hurt people or damage/destroy the aircraft and use the words MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY - anything else is stupid, seriously stupid !
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I have been there as well.
My experience is that Chinese ATC works fine when everything goes as planned. Any request out of the ordinary will be denied, the answer will mostly be "stand-by" in stead of "negative", they don't like saying no. They also don't take initiative.
I had to divert over China once due to WX at destination, asked several times for reroute, each time was told "stand-by" The second I called "Pan-pan" I was almost cleared direct the alternate. I am sure he was waiting for that call, so that any responsibility was taken out of his hands..
My experience is that Chinese ATC works fine when everything goes as planned. Any request out of the ordinary will be denied, the answer will mostly be "stand-by" in stead of "negative", they don't like saying no. They also don't take initiative.
I had to divert over China once due to WX at destination, asked several times for reroute, each time was told "stand-by" The second I called "Pan-pan" I was almost cleared direct the alternate. I am sure he was waiting for that call, so that any responsibility was taken out of his hands..
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[QUOTE=Good Business Sense;9029536]YES - I've been there !
Go around the weather, don't hurt people or damage/destroy the aircraft and use the words MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY - anything else is stupid, seriously stupid ![/QUOTE
Exactly, on the balance of probabilities the CB is more likely to kill you. I can't believe pilots would willingly fly into one. As a passenger this is my number one fear, pilots brave/reckless/inept enough with the radar to fly into one. Now I hear they'll just do it deliberately rather than so a 180? Maybe I shouldn't fly in the tropics...
Go around the weather, don't hurt people or damage/destroy the aircraft and use the words MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY - anything else is stupid, seriously stupid ![/QUOTE
Exactly, on the balance of probabilities the CB is more likely to kill you. I can't believe pilots would willingly fly into one. As a passenger this is my number one fear, pilots brave/reckless/inept enough with the radar to fly into one. Now I hear they'll just do it deliberately rather than so a 180? Maybe I shouldn't fly in the tropics...
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May I meekly point out: it is possible they hit a hail shaft many miles from the CB radar signature. I am reminded of the Valujet DC-9 that hit hail external to the clouds going from ATL to Chattanooga many years ago.
Twice I encountered hail while well clear, 20 miles or more, of any cell painted on radar and flown into hail, once in a Kingair 90, the other time in a 727. Fortunately both times it was light hail, pea size and only damaged paint. But the noise was unbelievable. Both times we were in the hail for only seconds.
So don’t be so quick to blame the guy in the left seat.
Oh, I've flown in China as well.