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Runway excursion by DL MD-80

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Runway excursion by DL MD-80

Old 7th Mar 2015, 15:57
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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airscotia.

if you don't like the wording, imagine that the world does not revolve around you. it revolves around the lowest common denominator and is not so HIGH BROW as to provide entertainment for you.
Skyhigh, I'm afraid I can't understand your post at all. Can you clarify, please?

I think this thread highlights the fact that there's an inherent schism between the technical providers of air transport, and the commercial staff whose purpose is to sell the service profitably in a highly regulated environment full of competition. Both sides have different objectives and different constraints. The passenger becomes part of the battlefront.

Getting a passenger off a damaged plane is a requirement for the technical staff. However, the passenger may well consist of more than the body in a seat. A passenger shivering on the runway without vital medication, such as heart pills, insulin, steroids, asthma medicines, may rapidly become an emergency of a different kind - just one that's no longer the responsibility of pilots and cabin crew. A passenger separated permanently from identification documents, passport, medical prescriptions, may be more than slightly inconvenienced. In these situations, passengers have learned that no-one on the airline side takes much responsibility for them. This is not the passengers' fault.

Aviation professionals seem to think of evacuations as being the kind of thing they've taken part in as training exercises, with a lot of young, fit people moving purposefully for the exits to do something they've had a chance to practice before. In reality, a crash-landed plane is likely to contain a number of people who've been injured and can't move easily, elderly people who need help even to leave their seats, and large objects ejected from overhead lockers or ripped loose from the galleys. Given the narrowness of the aisle(s), it is likely that passengers will be stuck in place for a bit, waiting for a route to clear. If there isn't a smell of burning or kerosene, and the engines are off, and the plane isn't too far from horizontal, and you can't vacate the plane in the next ten seconds on account of injured people being helped, why wouldn't you take the five/six seconds to retrieve your bag/coat from the locker? Especially when you know the airline will do b*gger all to connect you with your belongings once you're off the plane.

Yes, it would be best if passengers got off the plane without delay. It would also be best if they got off the plane with vital pills and paperwork. Perhaps the industry should address some inconvenient truths?
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Old 7th Mar 2015, 17:35
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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No one anytime anywhere has shown a shred of evidence that passengers carrying their personal effects hinders evacuation
Air Accidents Investigation: Boeing 737-804, G-GDFJ

Page 22

Passengers stood up and started moving towards the exits. Some tried to recover personal items from the overhead lockers, which created restrictions in the flow towards the exits.

Page 31

The evacuation took an estimated 3 minutes and 38 seconds. Passengers attempting to recover property from the overhead lockers delayed movement towards the exits, and the age or infirmity of some of the passengers may have extended the evacuation time.
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Old 7th Mar 2015, 20:12
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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seriously, are people still going on about locking the overhead lockers???

THE EMERGENCY EQUIPMENT AND MEDICAL KIT IS STORED IN THEM!!!!!



it......wont......happen.
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Old 7th Mar 2015, 20:22
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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pax evacuate with hand baggage.
....
Do the cabin crew police that at emergency exits?
What would be the result of that? A large pile of abandoned hand baggage piled up around the exit, blocking access.
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Old 7th Mar 2015, 21:10
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Evacuation , baggage and safety

The fight safety briefing is nothing of the sort. It is an emergency response briefing, but no airline will call it that. The flight deck says that the cabin crew are there primarily for “your safety”. I would argue they are nothing of the sort, otherwise they would all be wearing hi-viz vests and weapons and would obey the seat belt signs like pax do. Cabin crew are there to serve the calm pax with sustenance and advice and control the unruly pax. Why do they never sit down and belt up until FL100? Why do they serve hot drinks with the seat belt sign illuminated? Why do some pilots leave the seat belt sign on all the way from JFK to Shannon in calm air? Everyone on board disregards it after 2 hours and with good reason: either HAL has taken over the cockpit or Nigel has dozed off and forgotten to switch it off until initial decent into LHR.

A safe aircraft is one that is flown competently by an alert flight crew who fully understand how it works in all designed environments, is maintained by engineers who fully understand how to preserve design function & reverse the degradation of use, one which avoids un-flyable weather and contains pax with no malice to their fellow man. The safety briefing is redundant unless one or more of the above fails, by which time safety has been lost and an emergency prevails.

As individuals we all learn from birth how to handle emergencies depending on our own abilities and acuities and life experience. If your backside is on fire you will fight your way over Mr Jones trying to recover her duty free, as evidenced in the Manchester BA 737 in 1985.

However if the aircraft has come to rest and is damaged but evidently not life-threatening, common sense says “I will get out of here with both my backside and my backpack” because I am sure about my backside but about not my backpack.

No amount of airline brainwashing will alter that and no amount of “commander control” will influence it.

There is simply too much heavy hand baggage allowed on board, most of which ought to be diverted in the hold. The overhead lockers should be replaced with open coat racks like on trains. Mr O’Leary of course will prevent that because he sees hold baggage as an unnecessary cost.
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Old 7th Mar 2015, 21:20
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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When Flying, You Are In A Survival Situation

Yes, it would be best if passengers got off the plane without delay. It would also be best if they got off the plane with vital pills and paperwork. Perhaps the industry should address some inconvenient truths?
Despite their reluctance, the airlines and their governing regulators need to get it across to passengers that when they enter an airplane they are entering a survival situation and they need to be prepared.

I have said this before on other threads: When I travel by air I keep my passport, other identification, and at least two day's worth of medications (in plastic pill pouches) on my person in zipped or buttoned pockets. My shoes are always on my feet and tied securely. No slip-on shoes!. (My wife does the same.) I have been in two serious crashes. I am 78 years old but I am ready to RUN from a crashed plane.
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Old 7th Mar 2015, 21:52
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A passenger shivering on the runway without vital medication, such as heart pills, insulin, steroids, asthma medicines, may rapidly become an emergency of a different kind - just one that's no longer the responsibility of pilots and cabin crew. A passenger separated permanently from identification documents, passport, medical prescriptions, may be more than slightly inconvenienced.
Perhaps those passengers requiring essential medication should consider placing a small neck pouch/hip bag in the seat pocket containing these items, rather than placing them in the overhead locker. But how can you compare death and disfigurement with short term discomfort and inconvenience? If the aircraft does land at an airport, there should be a fleet of ambulances and trained medical staff heading in your direction. Ground staff should be able to provide blankets for warmth. It is the responsibility of the crew to attend to your needs on the ground in the shorter term. It is in the airline's interest to attend to the passengers in the longer term.

If the plane ditches in the ocean, what would the man requiring his computer do then?
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Old 7th Mar 2015, 22:36
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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With particular postings in mind I would say this. Any survivable landing accident should be treated in the same way - you have 90 seconds to get out, the 90 seconds the authorities tell us is the critical time if the aircraft is on fire. Fire may not be evident or start immediately. In the Stockport accident in 1967 the fire that caused many deaths of the injured didn't occur for several minutes.

Any idiot that stops to collect personal belongings not only risks their own life but risks becoming a murdering idiot by blocking the escape of those obstructed by their stupid selfishness.

I regularly fly on four types the 777, 747, 737 and A319. I know the safety cards and door operations by heart. I can put on a life vest blindfold, though I accept a survivable landing on water is highly unlikely. For some reason I think it is a good idea to refresh my memory on every sector, even consecutive sectors on the same type on the same day.

Anyone exiting a crashed airliner carrying any item of clothing or hand baggage in their hands should be arrested and charged both with endangering the safety of the other passengers and disregarding the lawful instructions of the crew.

On most flights I take my hand baggage includes over £4000 of photographic gear and a tablet. All are insured. Even if they were not, they can be replaced, my fellow passengers and I cannot.
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Old 7th Mar 2015, 23:04
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps those passengers requiring essential medication should consider placing a small neck pouch/hip bag in the seat pocket containing these items, rather than placing them in the overhead locker.
I agree wholeheartedly. I do so myself. But airlines never even hint that passengers should do this, and all the many shops in duty-free don't sell 'take- on emergency pouches'. Why not, do you think?

If the aircraft does land at an airport, there should be a fleet of ambulances and trained medical staff heading in your direction.
You'd hope so, but there have been more than a few accidents where the emergency services have been slow to arrive - for example, the Asiana crash. The immediate priority is for the fire services to make the situation safe - the passengers are out of the aircraft and the initial need is to keep them out of the way. Getting them back to the terminal will need a bus or two, and the buses won't be sent until the situation is secure.

In conditions like the Delta incident, a passenger not in the best of health would suffer quickly without shelter or at least a coat.
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Old 7th Mar 2015, 23:22
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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I can put on a life vest blindfold,
Can you do this just from the safety briefing, or have you been given supplementary training?

I booked myself on a BA course, where we all had the chance to try on the safety vest. Despite having watched the safety briefing carefully many hundreds of times, all attendees found that it was much trickier than we expected. Even young and athletic oil-rig workers found themselves sticking their heads through the armhole.

Quite how passengers are expected to do this in a crisis situation is an interesting question.
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Old 7th Mar 2015, 23:22
  #111 (permalink)  

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My shoes are always on my feet and tied securely. No slip-on shoes!.
That pax still travel in thongs, sandals, and the like astounds me. What hope for the general pax is there when even Mrs C, who's scared of flying, won't accept that most aeroplane crashes are survivable, ergo, one doesn't have to worry about escape enhancing footwear.
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Old 7th Mar 2015, 23:55
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AirScotia, Arm hole? When was the course and where? Life vests have a hole for the head and lie on the chest leaving the arms free. You may be confusing a life vest with an immersion suit. If so, the suit should always be put on prior to boarding what is normally a helicopter for an over water trip to, for instance, an oil rig. If people have problems donning an immersion suit on terra firma with no need to rush they must be pretty cackhanded.
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Old 8th Mar 2015, 00:12
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If people have problems donning an immersion suit on terra firma with no need to rush they must be pretty cackhanded.
I can only go by what I saw and experienced. Entirely fit 30-year-old men found themselves trying to connect the straps at the side, only to realise that they hadn't put their head through the necessary hole. It was surprisingly awkward to get all the bits in the right positions, even having watched cabin crew go through the motions many hundreds of times. Of course, it's not easy to perform an unfamiliar task in front of twenty sniggering adults, but then the circumstances under which it would have to be done for real are not likely to be quiet and serene either.

Note how many of the passengers standing on the wings of Sully's Airbus had made a hash of getting their vests on - and they surely knew they would need them in that situation.

It really is a shame for aviation pros that their planes aren't entirely populated by highly-trained military personnel, but only us cackhanded, dithering, unfit, disobedient punters who have the effrontery to want to get to another part of the planet without walking.
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Old 8th Mar 2015, 00:26
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Hang on a minute. First you said they were putting their heads into the (non existent) arm holes, now they are not putting their heads into the necessary (and only) hole.

In the case of the Hudson incident most people would only have grabbed their vest in the very few moments prior to the landing, some were known to have been donning the vest either whilst leaving the aircraft or even after leaving.

Admittedly the cases in which vests are thought most likely to be used are where there is adequate time prior to a ditching for all to don the vest. They have only one hole to avoid confusion though the straps can be confusing.

In the unlikely event of a successful ditching on the open ocean the greatest problem would be to ensure passengers do not inflate their vests before leaving the aircraft, doubtless with their belongings if the attitude of some poster on here is typical.

Last edited by philbky; 8th Mar 2015 at 00:40.
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Old 8th Mar 2015, 03:31
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I have been in two serious crashes.

My God! Smiling Ed! Two serious crashes! You are desperately unlucky to have experienced that. The odds of winning the Lottery have to be better than that, surely. Without a doubt you are the most qualified person here to comment on this nonsense of retrieving belongings before evacuating.
Like you, I carry all the essentials on me. Wallet, passport, medication if any etc etc. There is nothing in the overhead locker I'm not prepared to lose..
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Old 8th Mar 2015, 03:47
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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This guy wasn't paying attention to the safety brief,
or the women (and the other guy) are just more technically inclined..

(Sorry, nothing to do with the Delta..)
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Old 8th Mar 2015, 05:57
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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If you are unable to imagine how taking your personal belongings may hinder a a successful evacuation of ALL passengers, take a look at the video,the link for which is posted in the Turkish Airlines incident,Kathmandu.
It is the Facebook video,with the still image of the evacuation,taken from outside.
Towards the end,there is the internal view,showing the potential chaos,if smoke or flames where to suddenly appear!
Can't seem to repost it myself...but as pilot and passenger,it gives me the willies to watch...

Comments about personal documents,I quite understand,but,after the bumping and sliding and graunching has finished,and you hear those words"unfasten your seatbelts,evacuate,evacuate"Are you really going to open the overhead bins,and extract them first!!!!!
Maybe,passport should always be with you...

Regarding the unusual use of the lifejacket!!!!Cold ears maybe!!!
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Old 8th Mar 2015, 08:12
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Please Split Threads

There have been about 10 posts (some very insightful) about the actual incident, and pages of mostly drivel concerning passengers evacuating aircraft with baggage.

Moderators, please set up a new thread, maybe entitled "passengers evacuate aircraft with hand baggage" so that people who wish to discus this can do so at their leisure, without others, who would like to learn about the actual incident, having to trawl through pages and pages of repetitive discussion.

Thanks
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Old 8th Mar 2015, 08:40
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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I'm SLF so please forgive me, but many on here are missing a few critical points. Before I discuss that, let me first say that I would not grad my bag or anything before an emergency and that I keep my passports and anything not replaceable on my person at all times on flight.

The point that needs to be made is that current regulations, immigration and airline policy reward or at least encourage passengers to take their bags with them in an emergency. Examples I have read on this site over the years include:

1 - A crash landing with no fire (Asiana in SF????) where it took three days to return bags to passengers.

2 - A slide evac where passangers had to wait half a day in the terminal without any food / drinks provided to passengers who did not have any money / cards

Then, what happens when you are some nationality like Chinese or Indian and you land in the US and the plane does burn. Good luck proving anything to immigration!

The fact is if people are punished like this for doing the right thing, then nothing anyone can do will stop them from doing the wrong thing. That is human nature. The solution is to change the systems not just blame the people.
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Old 8th Mar 2015, 10:47
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Not to mention the problems of the expensive gear in the bag which mysteriously goes "missing" or gets "damaged" and then the arguments start with insurance over exactly whose fault it is and exactly when it was damaged/missing...in the accident or sometime later.

Passengers ain't stupid!
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