DHC-8-4 in landing accident @ CYEG
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Wales
Posts: 532
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Where's the Prop...
On the Private Flying Forum someone asked where his Cessna Prop bit had gone, after it suffered a detachment. The general consensus was that if it were a perfect projectile, and starting at 2400 rpm on a radius of 0.8m, then it could have gone up to 6 km.
I wonder where all the blades are of this DHC-8 ? It has a larger radius, but the rpm is not known.
I wonder where all the blades are of this DHC-8 ? It has a larger radius, but the rpm is not known.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Milwaukee WI
Age: 72
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There was a virtually identical incident in 1984 or 85 with a Republic (ex North Central) Convair 580; went into a snowbank on landing and shed a blade that penetrated the cabin and killed a passenger.
As a non-engineer, I'm always amazed that the blades stay attached at all. I assume that the blades on the Q400 are composites; would that have any implications for their sturdiness in this scenario?
As a non-engineer, I'm always amazed that the blades stay attached at all. I assume that the blades on the Q400 are composites; would that have any implications for their sturdiness in this scenario?
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Found in Toronto
Posts: 615
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Air Canada crash landing in Edmonton was more serious than first reported - The Globe and Mail
This quote seems to point to a possible bad wheel shimmy die to the blown tire. Bad enough to cause the gear to unlock maybe?
The Dash 8 is known for landing gear shimmy. We used to call it the "Shopping Cart Shimmy".
When the right landing gear deployed, Ms. Kurylo saw that the tire was “shredded and flapping.”
Ms. Menard said the landing initially seemed normal and passengers hadn’t been told to brace into a crash position.
Then the plane suddenly started rattling as they went down the runway. The right landing gear collapsed and the plane started tilting to the right. Ms. Menard felt as if she was in a car about to roll over
Ms. Menard said the landing initially seemed normal and passengers hadn’t been told to brace into a crash position.
Then the plane suddenly started rattling as they went down the runway. The right landing gear collapsed and the plane started tilting to the right. Ms. Menard felt as if she was in a car about to roll over
The Dash 8 is known for landing gear shimmy. We used to call it the "Shopping Cart Shimmy".
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Zealand
Age: 37
Posts: 247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The photos and video of the Eagle Air (Air NZ) B1900 that landed gear-up showed quite nicely the path the props took.
The CAANZ safety magazine used the picture on the front cover of one edition. A nice shot of the 1900 on the bottom on the page, with a prop blade flying past the title at the top.
The CAANZ safety magazine used the picture on the front cover of one edition. A nice shot of the 1900 on the bottom on the page, with a prop blade flying past the title at the top.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,868
Received 2,818 Likes
on
1,200 Posts
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Bc
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was on this particular flight and can def clear up how i watched the incident play out from my seat. Which happend to be 6F one row in front of where the prop came through the cabin. I am a Heli pilot so I dont have much knowledge to fixed wing emergency procedures. Yes on take off from YYC right before the roll i was awoken to a large bang and then some violent shaking through the AC. The pilots did the right thing got us in the air asap i am sure at that point if we had not the end of the runway was coming up soon. About 10 mins into the flight the captain told everyone we blew a tire and that it was no emergency and that plane can land no problem in Edmonton. This is where I am kind of curious as to why we weren't briefed on emergency procedures by flight crew or as you guy have mentioned cleared of the rows next to the prop. Not that it would have done any good as the plane was full of pax. I also and wondering why we didnt choose to burn off any fuel to reduce the gross weight of AC as we were full of PAX luggage and I am assuming enough fuel to make it to Grande Prairie. I was also surprised to not see the captain or co pilot come back to check on the gear and tire. I did see stewards try to see if we had a tire. Clearly we did but it had a large piece missing from the back side of it.
long story short plane descended and pilot put us down very slowly and smooth. Unfortunately this is where it gets a bit crazy once the weight of the plane was put on the gear the large vibration from the blown tire shook the plane violently then the gear collapsed. As the same time i was hit with pieces of the AC as the prop had blown out the area behind my head and also my window. at that point all i could see was sparks and ducked for cover.
to be honest I think the pilot did well to keep the AC on the tarmac and not the ditch but I am concerned about how the emergency was handled before we got to that point
long story short plane descended and pilot put us down very slowly and smooth. Unfortunately this is where it gets a bit crazy once the weight of the plane was put on the gear the large vibration from the blown tire shook the plane violently then the gear collapsed. As the same time i was hit with pieces of the AC as the prop had blown out the area behind my head and also my window. at that point all i could see was sparks and ducked for cover.
to be honest I think the pilot did well to keep the AC on the tarmac and not the ditch but I am concerned about how the emergency was handled before we got to that point
The questions to ask are...
Did the pilots know of a tire blow out prior to V1?
If so, were they on a short runway and decided to go anyway? A reject on a short runway with a blown tire is not recommended.
Was the gear raised for the flight to Edmonton?
Did the pilots know of a tire blow out prior to V1?
If so, were they on a short runway and decided to go anyway? A reject on a short runway with a blown tire is not recommended.
Was the gear raised for the flight to Edmonton?
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Another Planet.
Posts: 559
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"I was also surprised to not see the captain or co pilot come back to check on the gear and tire."
Post 9/11, flight crew are feeling inhibited from going back into the cabin, mixing with the SLF, in case they are attacked.
This is probably due to the wrong message being perceived as a result of DaFT and UK Transec and other Western Gov rules rules where flight crew are of course instantly subject to attack by crazed SLF with boxcutters etc blah blah.......
Alan Quaeda 1 - Common sense nil.
Post 9/11, flight crew are feeling inhibited from going back into the cabin, mixing with the SLF, in case they are attacked.
This is probably due to the wrong message being perceived as a result of DaFT and UK Transec and other Western Gov rules rules where flight crew are of course instantly subject to attack by crazed SLF with boxcutters etc blah blah.......
Alan Quaeda 1 - Common sense nil.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bell 212 noise has told us that when the wheel spun up upon touchdown, the whole aircraft shook violently. Is it possible that it shook the gear leg so much that the downlock was shaken undone, and the "leg lock" arrangement unlocked to allow the collapse?
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: I used to know
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bell 212,
Thanks for that. I hope you and the pax behind are ok.
Depending on the conditions in a Dash v1 is normally the same as vr or within 1 or 2 knots.
As can be seen on the debate about birdstrike continuing to destination, the Fo went back and had a look. When the wheel came off another dash I believe one of the crew went back as well.
Presumably dark so it would be quite hard to see the extent of the damage, however as I said before, just a blown tyre, should not have caused such vibration and subsequent gear collapse. It is possible that visual inspection by flight deck could have identified the extent of the damage with different decisions. There again maybe not.
Obviously the gear would still have collapsed but with a shutdown engine maybe not so much damage to pax.
It is perfectly ok for flightdeck to leave the cockpit so long as correct procedures are followed. I for one would probably want to go back myself and look.
Thanks for that. I hope you and the pax behind are ok.
Depending on the conditions in a Dash v1 is normally the same as vr or within 1 or 2 knots.
As can be seen on the debate about birdstrike continuing to destination, the Fo went back and had a look. When the wheel came off another dash I believe one of the crew went back as well.
Presumably dark so it would be quite hard to see the extent of the damage, however as I said before, just a blown tyre, should not have caused such vibration and subsequent gear collapse. It is possible that visual inspection by flight deck could have identified the extent of the damage with different decisions. There again maybe not.
Obviously the gear would still have collapsed but with a shutdown engine maybe not so much damage to pax.
It is perfectly ok for flightdeck to leave the cockpit so long as correct procedures are followed. I for one would probably want to go back myself and look.
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Not lost, but slightly uncertain of position.
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Blown tire can lead to collapse.
The manual for most types I have experiance on (military) clearly states that landing with a blown tire that has not separated completely from the rim can lead to gear collapse due to heavy vibrations. It does not state if the collapse is due to the downlock actuator beeing shaken into the unlocked position or due to the failure of the entire landing gear structure.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: In the Air
Age: 78
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In Line with the Props
Great picture, Dave.
I believe at least one of the injuries was due to being hit by the prop blade. I was most surprised to see that pax are seated in the prop plane. I have flown on a few prop jobs (DC-3, Viscount, Brit, and Vanguard) and none had seats in the prop plane. In fact, I dont recall any of these even had a window in the prop plane. Different regs. for different folk?
I believe at least one of the injuries was due to being hit by the prop blade. I was most surprised to see that pax are seated in the prop plane. I have flown on a few prop jobs (DC-3, Viscount, Brit, and Vanguard) and none had seats in the prop plane. In fact, I dont recall any of these even had a window in the prop plane. Different regs. for different folk?
Interesting point.
Hard to check every commercial prop airframe design ever certified - but it seems as though the only "basic" propliner with seating in line with the props from the get-go is the ATR 42 (one row).
The original versions of the DHC-8 and Fokker 27/50 have the props just (barely) ahead of the seating - but in stretching them, seating moved into the prop plane. As also the ATR-72.
Could be an oversight, or could be someone decided a prop separation was a low-probability risk. At least against the return from all those lovely extra revenue seats.
(Lots of designs have cabin space in the prop plane, but devoted to galleys, bogs, bulkheads between first/cattle class, etc. If you choose the wrong moment to get your coat from the stowage closet on an F-50....)
Hard to check every commercial prop airframe design ever certified - but it seems as though the only "basic" propliner with seating in line with the props from the get-go is the ATR 42 (one row).
The original versions of the DHC-8 and Fokker 27/50 have the props just (barely) ahead of the seating - but in stretching them, seating moved into the prop plane. As also the ATR-72.
Could be an oversight, or could be someone decided a prop separation was a low-probability risk. At least against the return from all those lovely extra revenue seats.
(Lots of designs have cabin space in the prop plane, but devoted to galleys, bogs, bulkheads between first/cattle class, etc. If you choose the wrong moment to get your coat from the stowage closet on an F-50....)
Back in the propliner days, my father was quite strict that me and my sis did not sit opposite the props.
My memory is that there was uninterrupted seating from the front to the back in Douglas, Boeing, Lockheed, Canadair and Vickers products.
My memory is that there was uninterrupted seating from the front to the back in Douglas, Boeing, Lockheed, Canadair and Vickers products.
It is considered impractical to stop a released prop blade from going into/through the cabin walls. However some degree of minimization of the hazard to aircraft critical systems need be shown. (redundancy, duplication etc.)
Nowhere in the regulations does it specifically state passenger seating.
Most aircraft designers eliminate the view of the prop plane from a window line. (I guess that is a calming means when it comes to bird and ice splatter)
Nowhere in the regulations does it specifically state passenger seating.
Most aircraft designers eliminate the view of the prop plane from a window line. (I guess that is a calming means when it comes to bird and ice splatter)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nowhere in the regulations does it specifically state passenger seating.
Sec. 23.771
Pilot compartment.
For each pilot compartment--
..... and
(c) The aerodynamic controls listed in Sec. 23.779, excluding cables and control rods, must be located with respect to the propellers so that no part of the pilot or the controls lies in the region between the plane of rotation of any inboard propeller and the surface generated by a line passing through the center of the propeller hub making an angle of 5° forward or aft of the plane of rotation of the propeller.]
Pilot compartment.
For each pilot compartment--
..... and
(c) The aerodynamic controls listed in Sec. 23.779, excluding cables and control rods, must be located with respect to the propellers so that no part of the pilot or the controls lies in the region between the plane of rotation of any inboard propeller and the surface generated by a line passing through the center of the propeller hub making an angle of 5° forward or aft of the plane of rotation of the propeller.]
Does the Vickers Viscount have uninterrupted seating? Yes.
Is any of the seating in the prop plane? No. It starts behind the props and goes back from there.
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace...01-cutaway.jpg
DC-6 - same thing: http://www.the-office.com/470/douglasDC6.jpg
DC-4 - same: http://ipm.comxa.com/alkva/pic/ac/prop/DC4-cw.jpg
Vickers Vanguard; washrooms in the prop plane - http://www.airliner-models.org/_fr/20/4715464.jpg
Lockheed Connie - washroom in the prop plane: http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace...er-cutaway.jpg
Lockheed Electra - ALL the seats (uninterrupted) AND the cockpit behind the prop plane: http://atallguy.com/Simple-Multi-Vie...electra_3v.jpg
Lockheed 188 - http://lessonslearned.faa.gov/Electr...0wireframe.jpg
Boeing 377 - galley and washroom in prop plane, no seating: http://www.airlinereporter.com/wp-co...way-ad_672.jpg
Boeing 314 - galley and radio operator in prop plane - no seating: http://socks-studio.com/img/blog/b-3...-interior.jpeg
Father's advice was no doubt good - but unnecessary, since it was virtually impossible to disobey. At least back then.
Is any of the seating in the prop plane? No. It starts behind the props and goes back from there.
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace...01-cutaway.jpg
DC-6 - same thing: http://www.the-office.com/470/douglasDC6.jpg
DC-4 - same: http://ipm.comxa.com/alkva/pic/ac/prop/DC4-cw.jpg
Vickers Vanguard; washrooms in the prop plane - http://www.airliner-models.org/_fr/20/4715464.jpg
Lockheed Connie - washroom in the prop plane: http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace...er-cutaway.jpg
Lockheed Electra - ALL the seats (uninterrupted) AND the cockpit behind the prop plane: http://atallguy.com/Simple-Multi-Vie...electra_3v.jpg
Lockheed 188 - http://lessonslearned.faa.gov/Electr...0wireframe.jpg
Boeing 377 - galley and washroom in prop plane, no seating: http://www.airlinereporter.com/wp-co...way-ad_672.jpg
Boeing 314 - galley and radio operator in prop plane - no seating: http://socks-studio.com/img/blog/b-3...-interior.jpeg
Father's advice was no doubt good - but unnecessary, since it was virtually impossible to disobey. At least back then.