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Pilot over drink/drive limit removed from aircraft

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Pilot over drink/drive limit removed from aircraft

Old 6th Nov 2014, 23:35
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And I must assume you are in the industry, not just another of the thousand or so armchair critics, or dare I guess media types.
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Old 7th Nov 2014, 06:50
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This thread is starting to show more about the way this industry sees its self than the truth of the matter.

Some above have a very black and white view to incapacitation, I think that this is because they feel professional embarrassed when a fellow pilot turns up in the press over the drink limit and so rush to jump on the outrage bus.

Drinking and flying is not a serious issue for this industry flying fatigue is ! the very few who do drink and fly are a serious issue.

Part of the problem is the attitude of the press and the wish of so called journalists to make a big splash, getting the under achiving lower middle classes outraged sells a lot of copy's of the Mail and Express, to this end they will bend the truth to breaking point. I was the witness to the tragic fall from long haul pilot to vagrant of a guy with a drink problem. He had called in sick because of his problem and three days later he was caught driving his car over the limit, dispite the fact that he had called in sick three days previous one of the UK's tabloids headlined this as drunk on the way to work as he had been previously rostered to fly that day.
I have no doubt that the cheap and untrue actions of this newspaper had a detrimental effect on a guy who was seeking help for a problem and trying to get it sorted. I personally put 90% of the blame for this guys failure to recover from his achohol problem on the journalist who was more than happy kick this guy when he was down with an untrue story just to sell a few newspapers.

And so we see that a pilot who is incapacitated by drink is an easy target for selling newspapers and some above are just as happy to jump on the outrage bus but the fatigue incapasitation issue is almost imposable to define in the press and it is far too complicated to sell newspapers to the likes of Mrs Miggins.

And just to make it clear to the anti alcohol PC brigade nothing I have said above condones drinking and flying ( or driving ) it is just an observation of the attitudes of some on this forum who for their own reasons get outraged by one problem and try to pretend another even more serious problem even exists.

Last edited by A and C; 7th Nov 2014 at 08:28.
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Old 7th Nov 2014, 08:55
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51 years old, career professional pilot.
Have I ever turned in whilst unfit? Yes, once, in a past life before my civil career. After an end of show party at one of the worlds largest airshows. I had a slot time to make and felt shabby. I forgot to engage the autopilot, lifted downwind and the crowd thought my departure was me showing off....... It wasnt.
Since then I have had some altercations stopping people entering the cockpit to make MY mistake. Once a squadron commander ordered me to let a junior pilot fly from germany when the plan changed at the last minute. Lets say he was incandescant with me stopping the flight. I stood my ground and he spent the whole flight back throwing up in the cabin. When the bass saw him, he thanked me for being a c@@t (his words).
So, Im not perfect, never claimed to be. In my civil career I have never ever turned up over the limit. Plan boozing for rest days.
Do I think it is an incorrect limit? Hell Yes!! But its what we have for now, live with it. If you want to start a campaign to link flying limits to driving limits, I am in. Just dont link this case in hand to the law being wrong. We have to work with what we have for now, nobody is above the law, no matter how stupid the law is.
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Old 7th Nov 2014, 10:34
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Jayteeto

This is not about changing the alcohol limits for flying.

It is about how the common problem of pilot fatigue is perceived in comparison with the very uncommon problem of alcohol on the flight deck both within the industry and the press.
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Old 7th Nov 2014, 11:02
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No doubt we will look back in horror at the fatigue that was allowed in the industry today . How it will change is the worry . Someone flying with a substance abuse problem needs to be grounded and treated .
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Old 7th Nov 2014, 13:33
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A personal opinion

I'm not in the industry although I am one of its customers from time to time. I'm also someone, regrettably, with personal experience of addiction to alcohol and almost 25 years of freedom from that addiction. I also know an awful lot of people similarly afflicted who have either recovered or still persisting in this behavioural disorder (or "illness" if you prefer.)

Of the thousands of stories I've heard from fellow alcoholics over the years, and the literature I've read on the subject, I can confidently say that all sectors of society and every profession is afflicted to some degree by this problem. There are plenty of anomalies - for example the medical profession is over-represented: I have no idea why. There are also firm genetic correlations; if you have someone in the immediately family with an alcohol/addiction problem your chances of also having one are a multiple of the statistical general population average.

For anyone interested in the numbers and the sociology Harvard Medical School have been running a long-term prospective study of this affliction, the results of which are published as "The Natural History of Alcoholism" in various revised editions.

I'm sure that the aviation industry has more significant safety problems than alcoholism. However I'm equally sure that it includes an equivalent proportion of alcoholics, more or less, to the general population. That'd be quite a few people, pilots included. What often escapes people's understanding where this phenomenon is concerned is that alcoholism is frequently managed by the functioning alcoholic so that at a superficial level their performance is not obviously affected. Quite often it's only when some crisis point is reached where their condition becomes apparent to their colleagues, family and friends - although those closest are obviously more likely to witness the underlying dysfunction. So there are probably plenty of alcoholics flying aircraft whose blood alcohol content is nil or legal.

Alcohol is so integrated into western society that the problems it causes are frequently rationalised away. But it's an addictive drug, just like heroin - although the physical dependency is slower in onset. And the functioning alcoholic who is never, ever drunk on the job (any job) is still an individual whose performance is compromised, subtly or otherwise. Choosing to look the other way doesn't do functioning alcoholics any favours, but that's what we often do.
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Old 7th Nov 2014, 18:38
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Very well said Skridlov. Very well said.
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Old 7th Nov 2014, 22:13
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Stigmatization

I would bet my house that more than one person who has read this thread has wondered how long their luck will last, or think they have had a lucky escape. Not a huge amount, but more than one.
There is a huge stigma attached to problem drinking, not helped by the huge industry which "treats" alcoholism and has a vested interest in keeping it high profile as a "disease" which needs specialized treatment.
It would help if the person worried about their drinking realized that it is not a reflection on their personal strength if they find it hard to refuse the last drink or feel a compulsion to take the party back to their room, even thought they have commitments the next morning.
Having a drink problem is not the same as being an alcoholic (though the treatment is the same- abstinence).The majority of people who are having problems with their drinking can return to enjoying a drink, as long as they have a period of abstinence which is long enough for them to learn why they are drinking to excess right now, and to know that there is an alternative.
We don't have to wait until the axe falls.
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Old 8th Nov 2014, 15:15
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Well said. Particularly the bit about not all culprits being alcoholics. Mandalay party culture plus many other reasons can occur
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Old 9th Nov 2014, 23:06
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sharksandwich - what is your evidence for your contention that: "the majority of people who are having problems with their drinking can return to enjoying a drink, as long as they have a period of abstinence which is long enough for them to learn why they are drinking to excess right now, and to know that there is an alternative."? My experience as a mental health professional is the opposite, i.e. that the majority of people who are having problems with their drinking cannot return to 'enjoying a drink'. Insight into the underlying reasons as to why one drinks to excess is not sufficient to change the behaviour in and of itself, (with or without a period of abstinence to facilitate the insight).
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Old 10th Nov 2014, 00:12
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Asterea- professional experience over 30 years.PM me if you would like more info.
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Old 10th Nov 2014, 16:30
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Because your assertion that the 'majority' of problem drinkers can resume normal drinking following a suitable pause is so at variance with most of the literature on the subject, including my own 30 PLUS years of experience, I would be interested to see any reputable studies substantiating this claim which you might care to post.
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Old 10th Nov 2014, 17:06
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Fatigue doesn't have a social stigma attached to it so don't expect anyone buying a ticket to give a toss any time soon.
FTR I have been on the wrong side of long term chronic fatigue and didn't have a clue!
Been there! Fatigue has long gone but the tee shirt feels like a tattoo.
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Old 10th Nov 2014, 17:10
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And of course fatigue can't be detected and quantified - there's no "breathalyser" to do that.
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Old 10th Nov 2014, 22:27
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Actually Pozidrive there is at least something that is being looked at as a decent and reliable indicator if someone is too tired to perform certain tasks. That something is how quickly one's eyes/pupils can contract or dilate.

The idea here is that whether on the line of sleepy or truly fatigued the bottom line is impairment. Again, this is being looked at and has by no means been perfected. It does however, show a lot of promise and was not something that sprung from the flying industry but rather after looking into shift work accidents.

I am sure the airline industry would push back violently against such a "test" but I would like to see some of the science progress with it. Impaired is impaired without rest no matter what the reason.

Remember, just something that is being worked at...
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Old 11th Nov 2014, 03:53
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Cognitive function testing has been under research for decades and progress has been made in defining measurable parameters. The difficulty seems to be in finding consensus on an acceptable objective standard for defining the parameters for acceptance or rejection. Meanwhile most societies will continue to apply the arbitrary BAC as being the standard for acceptance or rejection for vehicle operators. Perhaps someday a more objective cognitive function standard will be applied which recognizes cognitive function impairment causality is not limited to just the socially stigmatized acts of being impaired by alcohol or drugs.

Dr Mark Rosekind (along with others) has participated in fatigue research and as an NTSB board member, has advocated for further recognition of fatigue as a cognitive function inhibitor. Perhaps someday reason will prevail over the entrenched attitude that fatigue is just an excuse for the lazy. If a pilot is tired he or she needs to be careful how they broach the subject lest they be referred for a medical "sleep study" or become subject to being disciplined for absenteeism!

The tide of general opinion is influenced by reason and ignorance, and generally shifts very slowly, but is progressing in the right direction. (very slowly)

Even with all that said, taking a drink (or several!) is still a conscious choice made by the individual concerned. A pilot is expected to make responsible choices wherever they may affect one's suitability for flight duty. Screwing up once and having to call off sick or fatigued is an error. Doing it multiple times is a pattern of behavior and probably indicates the need for some sort of professional help.

I had a guy show up at the airplane for an early short notice call out for a charter flight. He was by my estimation about half in the bag. I told him to go away and that I wouldn't volunteer that I'd ever seen him that morning if he would call the CP and explain why he couldn't fly today. The CP called me 20 minutes later to tell me the guy had resigned and that a different FO would be arriving soon. He asked after my own "suitability for flight" and I told him that the 4 hours of sleep I'd had would likely be sufficient to carry me through to about noon before I'd have to check into a hotel to get some more sleep. The trip was scheduled to be completed by then so no problem as long as it didn't involve alcohol!
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Old 11th Nov 2014, 06:37
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If I have the choice between an experienced, safe, relaxed cow-orker who broke the bottle-to-throttle rule by 30 minures because he accidentally swallowed some mouthwash, before getting 8 hours of good sleep, and a “sober”, yet underpaid, stressed guy on a crappy roster, who falls asleep because he's dead tired, and can't focus because he's worried how he'll pay his dentist... hmmm... difficult choice.
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Old 11th Nov 2014, 08:42
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Deptrai

You make a very good point about the conditions the induce fatigue and the fact that fatigue can't be cured by one good nights sleep.

Poor rosters, long duty hours in the small hours and not knowing how you are going to pay both the bank loan for the pilot training and the mortgage are all fatigue inducing factors............. What that guy needs is a holiday.......and that he can't afford !!!!!

As usual it all goes back to cost and blame, the lawyers can pin incapasitation from alcohol on an individual without a shadow of doubt, an airline boss who's business practices result in an accident that has fatigue as a major contributory factor will be far more slippery even if it gets as far as court.
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Old 11th Nov 2014, 09:49
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How much good research has been done into flying under the influence as opposed to driving research being extrapolated into aviation?

To play Devil's advocate for a moment, aren't there substantial differences between the tasks and reactions required by car drivers and pilots? In that car drivers often experience what amounts to close formation flying for hours at a time (equivalent to half a car's width/wingspan on multi-lane roads) or head-on traffic avoidance with scant inches of clearance, often at very high combined speeds and in the dark/poor vis and with an absence of visual references that would terrify any pilot. There is virtually nothing that pilots experience that requires continuous, repeated and extended instant speed/distance judgements, rather sitting there trying not to get the leans if hand flying, nothing closer than a mile or two/1000ft and a buddy to keep them out of trouble. Even landing is imo a far less taxing "instant decision" phase than driving on a 2 lane road with oncoming traffic, and it is that instant control/judgement loop that alcohol strongly affects.
I'm not talking about emergencies, just routine flying which is what the stats will depend on. Even so damn few emergencies in the air result in the sort of instant and dire difficulties a dui would experience with, say a tyre blowing on the 2 lane road...Of course pilots under the influence are degraded, I just suspect they are far less degraded in practice than the layman would imagine.
We are, after all, expected to have brains like razors and perfect eagle-vision unlike granny in her Fiesta - yet she stays out of trouble on the roads most of the time. Why?

Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 11th Nov 2014 at 12:12.
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Old 11th Nov 2014, 11:01
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Agaricus Bisporus

The car driver vs pilot a analergy is an interesting one and deserves futher investigation.

As most of the general public live a 9 to 5 lifestyle, going to sleep at night and working during the day I would guess that would have a large influence on the numbers, perhaps if you look at the numbers for those who have jobs that require nightshift work you might find things are a little more deferent I would hazard a guess that the road accident numbers for Heath care workers is higher than for the public at large.
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