Spain sees the light, France next ?
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This 'debate' has been going on at least for as long as I've had an outsider's interest in aviation. I doubt the industry has the discipline to resolve it.
Which means it will be resolved by other means. To this outsider, it looks like yet another really good argument in favour of full automation and the removal of humans from the flight deck and the ATC console. Computers may speak many different languages, but they've at least learned to communicate with each other in just the one.
Which means it will be resolved by other means. To this outsider, it looks like yet another really good argument in favour of full automation and the removal of humans from the flight deck and the ATC console. Computers may speak many different languages, but they've at least learned to communicate with each other in just the one.
And good luck with that considering it is far cheaper to maintain the current infrastructure than design and introduce a totally new fully automated one and will be for a quite considerable number of years. More than we need to worry about. But anyway, that's the thread drifting away.
To this outsider, it looks like yet another really good argument in favour of full automation and the removal of humans from the flight deck and the ATC console.
Originally Posted by hec7or
eg. an immediate instruction to prevent an accident or incident, while nice for others to understand, would be better for the crew to which it is addressed to be clear and unambiguous and in the language that both they and the controller understand best.
I was involved in a nasty air miss in Spain. For some reason, the approach controller shouted in English at the Spanish aircraft, with a panic in his voice I'll never forget, to make a rapid turn to the right. We were watching the TCAS and became visual with this head-on aircraft at the same time. I was able to start my right turn just before the "BREAK BREAK xxx turn right TURN RIGHT" instruction.
Now, I know a Frenchman will say "but you have TCAS", but that's not the attitude in aviation. Except, clearly, in France (and there were a/c above and below).
I know ICAO says that it's legal to use French. We are just discussing the safest option - something that nearly every other state has come to a different conclusion than the French have. Maybe as soon as the AF arrives in the Cardiff zone, all the other local aircraft should switch to Welsh so the AF doesn't have a clue what's going on. And if someone gets killed, and the report says we should consider not doing that, then we'll just shrug our shoulders and state that ICAO allows us to use the beautiful Welsh language, and the French can just go away and learn Welsh if they want to be safe.
SLF,
Yes. But you can rest assured that the French will not subscribe to such a scheme unless there will be a FRENCH button and all input/output will be in French. There will never be concord(e) with their approach.
Last edited by HundredPercentPlease; 19th Jun 2014 at 12:07. Reason: Added quote for clarity due to cross posting
100%please
Clearly a situation where knowing what the other guy is going to do will increase the probability of a safe outcome, but why would ICAO stick to the status quo?
My guess is that they still consider it more expedient in a case such as your own for the Spanish controller to use Spanish to an EC reg, as do I.
FWIW, my last airprox involved a lack of co ordination between 2 APP controllers in the UK, both talking English, just not to one another.
ICAO even mandates for States who do not use the National language by requiring them to agree a language for aeronautical use, so in Wales you would be talking English as that is the language required to be spoken by the ground station for aeronautical communications.
Glad you lived to tell the tale!
Clearly a situation where knowing what the other guy is going to do will increase the probability of a safe outcome, but why would ICAO stick to the status quo?
My guess is that they still consider it more expedient in a case such as your own for the Spanish controller to use Spanish to an EC reg, as do I.
FWIW, my last airprox involved a lack of co ordination between 2 APP controllers in the UK, both talking English, just not to one another.
ICAO even mandates for States who do not use the National language by requiring them to agree a language for aeronautical use, so in Wales you would be talking English as that is the language required to be spoken by the ground station for aeronautical communications.
Glad you lived to tell the tale!
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But a French controller at CDG wouldn't try talking to a UK reg in French nor to a D reg in German, English would be the best option, even though ICAO Annex 10 Vol 11 para 5.2.1.2 stipulates French, with English on request.
I would guess that most non-native english speakers (myself included) find english very easy to use especially when used properly in aviation. And it is definetaley easier to learn than french - I´ve tried to learn both.
Originally Posted by hec7or
but why would ICAO stick to the status quo?
Why in major international events, especially ones televised around the world, do all spokespeople chose to use English, with the exception of the French (and this ranges from the PM down to the Eurovision points announcer) who just blast out in French as if it were some kind of sin, or removal of national right, to use the language only the French consider as the international language.
I suspect lobbying.
But it doesn't matter. The Germans could do the same thing, but they don't. The Dutch could do the same thing, but they don't. Even the Turks, Greeks and Egyptians put safety first, and use English. It's not a problem so long as the use of the language is proficient - and if it's good enough for an emergency in English (which it has to be) then it's good enough to use all the time.
Only the French search around for excuses to ignore this blatant fact, and it's increasing risk unnecessarily. Everyone else sees that - but they refuse to open their eyes.
Tragic, especially when it has already caused (according to the report, already quoted in this thread) fatalities.
My only hope lies in the example of the AF (French) Captain who shouted at the controller to use English, since they were in an emergency/Mayday condition. At least there are some pilots out there who understand.
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Below is an extract of an audit done in France by or on behalf of the Ministry of Transports and the French DGAC, to assess the quality of training of pilots in France:
Underlined (by me) in the quote is an interesting sentence, which roughly translates to: "It can also be noted that the weakness in mastering the English language by some pilots can generate problems for French airlines, be it on the aspects of flight operations, but also in terms of flight safety."
A few lines below: "Upon joining the training schools, numerous student pilots do not have the conversational level of English that is required by their future employers, be it French or foreign" (it's unclear if they talk about the future employers, as there seems to be some grammar mismatch.)
This report was published in 2005. It's not so long ago, but sure feels nothing has changed since... We can still keep our eyes closed and pretend that the issue is only a matter of pride because of the right to use French in France, but the strong underlying reason seems that many French pilots do not have the level required for conversational English, regardless of whatever ICAO ELP that can be shown on their licence. It has been an ever-existing problem in the French education system, that relies strongly on a maximum of theory and minimum practice. In other words, you can find in France some English language "experts", they will know all the irregular verbs and the grammar rules, but their actual level of conversational English will be below par.
As was mentioned on previous posts, but in different words: If the French had a high level of proficiency in the English language, it should not be an issue to use it.
Now I'll go down in flames....
Etude de la formation aéronautique professionnelle des pilotes en France
Air France Consulting, Avico, BT Consulting & SI
Date: 25 janvier 2005
Page 96 / 98
En revanche, le manque d’implication de l’ensemble des acteurs de la formation
aéronautique française dans un cursus en langue anglaise constitue un écueil majeur pour
le développement des écoles (voire à terme pour leur survie). En effet, cette lacune bride
aussi largement l’attrait des écoles françaises pour les stagiaires étrangers que les
débouchés étrangers pour les stagiaires français.
On pourrait également noter que la faible maîtrise de la langue anglaise par certains pilotes suscite
des problèmes pour les compagnies aériennes françaises, tant sur le plan de l’exploitation qu’en
terme de sécurité des vols.
Une inversion de la tendance actuelle est ardue, car aussi bien les élèves pilotes que les écoles et
la tutelle partagent la responsabilité de ces lacunes :
• Nombre d’élèves pilotes n’ont pas un niveau d’anglais conversationnel à leur entrée dans les
écoles en phase avec les attentes de leurs futurs employeurs, qu’il soit étrangers ou français
Air France Consulting, Avico, BT Consulting & SI
Date: 25 janvier 2005
Page 96 / 98
En revanche, le manque d’implication de l’ensemble des acteurs de la formation
aéronautique française dans un cursus en langue anglaise constitue un écueil majeur pour
le développement des écoles (voire à terme pour leur survie). En effet, cette lacune bride
aussi largement l’attrait des écoles françaises pour les stagiaires étrangers que les
débouchés étrangers pour les stagiaires français.
On pourrait également noter que la faible maîtrise de la langue anglaise par certains pilotes suscite
des problèmes pour les compagnies aériennes françaises, tant sur le plan de l’exploitation qu’en
terme de sécurité des vols.
Une inversion de la tendance actuelle est ardue, car aussi bien les élèves pilotes que les écoles et
la tutelle partagent la responsabilité de ces lacunes :
• Nombre d’élèves pilotes n’ont pas un niveau d’anglais conversationnel à leur entrée dans les
écoles en phase avec les attentes de leurs futurs employeurs, qu’il soit étrangers ou français
A few lines below: "Upon joining the training schools, numerous student pilots do not have the conversational level of English that is required by their future employers, be it French or foreign" (it's unclear if they talk about the future employers, as there seems to be some grammar mismatch.)
This report was published in 2005. It's not so long ago, but sure feels nothing has changed since... We can still keep our eyes closed and pretend that the issue is only a matter of pride because of the right to use French in France, but the strong underlying reason seems that many French pilots do not have the level required for conversational English, regardless of whatever ICAO ELP that can be shown on their licence. It has been an ever-existing problem in the French education system, that relies strongly on a maximum of theory and minimum practice. In other words, you can find in France some English language "experts", they will know all the irregular verbs and the grammar rules, but their actual level of conversational English will be below par.
As was mentioned on previous posts, but in different words: If the French had a high level of proficiency in the English language, it should not be an issue to use it.
Now I'll go down in flames....
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Having lived 12 years of my life in France & having 2 kids with a French mother, I see no reason to contradict anything you have said. Not Anti-French (obviously, as it is my kids nationality) but likewise cannot disagree with what you have said.
FLXPWR
It reminds me of that joke about a meeting of French governmental officials who were pondering a problem. "Alors" said one of them. "This works great in practice but does it work in theory?"
It has been an ever-existing problem in the French education system, that relies strongly on a maximum of theory and minimum practice.
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Uncle Fred,
That is just about it.
When asked to describe how French people are different, I always say, most races spend time & effort to simplify the things in life that are complicated, the French however, appear to go to great lengths to complicate the simple.
Cruel ? I don't know, but just as much truth as irony there
That is just about it.
When asked to describe how French people are different, I always say, most races spend time & effort to simplify the things in life that are complicated, the French however, appear to go to great lengths to complicate the simple.
Cruel ? I don't know, but just as much truth as irony there
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Fat chance that this long overdue safety initiative will ever get traction!
Dream on, whatever next? The Yanks using correct ICAO R/T phraseology, discipline and order within Spanish ATC, cheap fuel in Italy, ramp agents in Brazil that you can trust, CAKOK in Beijing?
Dream on, whatever next? The Yanks using correct ICAO R/T phraseology, discipline and order within Spanish ATC, cheap fuel in Italy, ramp agents in Brazil that you can trust, CAKOK in Beijing?
More on a serious note, I honestly think that it will take quite some time for Spanish pilots/atc to understand each other when both are speaking English, unfortunately. Although this would help other pilots, monitoring the same freq, that don´t speak, neither understand Spanish. I imagine some pilots probably get a bit 'lost' traffic wise when approaching Spanish airports.
As for Franch, like it has been said, I reckon they wouldn´t take this so easily.
I may appreciate your concerns about Spanish and French using their own languages. Both are ICAO languages and you have to accept this fact; moreover Spanish is now the language most spoken in the USA!
But why not a word on the Russians, as they also use their own (and ICAO) language?
But why not a word on the Russians, as they also use their own (and ICAO) language?
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Some Spanish airlines, in the past, required their pilots to speak only English, like Spanair, but it has never been very common.
But I don't think pilots would agree with this measure. In some airlines, like Iberia, even the checklists, the plates, and other documents are written in Spanish.
But I don't think pilots would agree with this measure. In some airlines, like Iberia, even the checklists, the plates, and other documents are written in Spanish.
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What it boils down to is this:
This debate always descends in perpetual circles of pointless tail-chasing because people fail to see the bigger picture; or to let go of their patronage of whichever language is their mother tongue.
But the simple fact is this: After we've finished winning the debate that the international language of aviation radiotelephony is English - we need to admit that it isn't actually English is it?
You heard me.
We do NOT use English as the international language of radiotelephony. We use a very simplified and restricted vocabulary of around 150 simple words, many of which have roots in the English Language, as well as some from other languages. But its not "English".
Every pilot has to LEARN the language of radiotelephony before they can use it. English speaking pilots have to learn the aviation vocabulary just like anyone else.
It's inexcusable for people to keep inventing reasons to justify why they should use some other language instead. We only have one sky and we can only keep it safe if we understand each other, because situational awareness is crucial to safety.
But the simple fact is this: After we've finished winning the debate that the international language of aviation radiotelephony is English - we need to admit that it isn't actually English is it?
You heard me.
We do NOT use English as the international language of radiotelephony. We use a very simplified and restricted vocabulary of around 150 simple words, many of which have roots in the English Language, as well as some from other languages. But its not "English".
Every pilot has to LEARN the language of radiotelephony before they can use it. English speaking pilots have to learn the aviation vocabulary just like anyone else.
It's inexcusable for people to keep inventing reasons to justify why they should use some other language instead. We only have one sky and we can only keep it safe if we understand each other, because situational awareness is crucial to safety.
Based on my broad experience of flying around french airspace,I would like to add the following sobering, stunning observation....
The french are fully aware that using english only during RT comms will increase air safety considerably. But they will never give up their right to use the french language, because this small safety sacrifice always will prevail over their national pride.
Safety is not sooooo important as francophony.
The french are fully aware that using english only during RT comms will increase air safety considerably. But they will never give up their right to use the french language, because this small safety sacrifice always will prevail over their national pride.
Safety is not sooooo important as francophony.
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I agree, the French are convinced that Clément Ader invented the plane, that they made the first flight, that Nungesser and Coli were the first to cross the Atlantic by plane, and that Airbus is the French biggest aircraft producer in the world.
The misunderstanding is that English has never been accepted to replace local official languages, it is just recognized as the official language for international flights. It would be impossible to impose another language to French people as it is forbidden by their law and you would get a riot from 40000 local pilots who do not want to learn English to fly in their airspace (+most of african and East Canadian airspaces...).
English is just tolerated on the French frequencies for pilots coming from abroad who did no yet learn the French poetic aeronautical language, they are tolerated and cannot ask for more.
Many posts were about French but we could go on in the same way with Russian language on Russian frequencies (with the same national pride and aeronautical superiority: Gagarine + spoutnik...) or Chinese language on Chinese frequencies.
Chinese could expect all of us to switch to Chinese language within a decade as they are becoming the biggest airline market, and purchasing all our aeronautical companies... I don't know how many pilots will accept to learn Chinese to fly safely around Duxford or Wichita.
The misunderstanding is that English has never been accepted to replace local official languages, it is just recognized as the official language for international flights. It would be impossible to impose another language to French people as it is forbidden by their law and you would get a riot from 40000 local pilots who do not want to learn English to fly in their airspace (+most of african and East Canadian airspaces...).
English is just tolerated on the French frequencies for pilots coming from abroad who did no yet learn the French poetic aeronautical language, they are tolerated and cannot ask for more.
Many posts were about French but we could go on in the same way with Russian language on Russian frequencies (with the same national pride and aeronautical superiority: Gagarine + spoutnik...) or Chinese language on Chinese frequencies.
Chinese could expect all of us to switch to Chinese language within a decade as they are becoming the biggest airline market, and purchasing all our aeronautical companies... I don't know how many pilots will accept to learn Chinese to fly safely around Duxford or Wichita.
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What can become a bit old hat on pprune is the usual "France bashing".
Yes we all know that english is the official aviation language, but the rather snotty way some, i said some british or indeed other english speaking countries go about this is tiring to listen to.
People not fluent in english are often mocked or looked down upon, conveniently forgetting the fact that they themselves often are monolingual.
Yes in an ideal world we would all be speaking one language, but that would take away so much of the richness languages have in them. This often not seen by monolinguists.
And lets be honest here, aircraft aren't exactly flying into one another on a daily, weekly, or even monthly basis in these countries.
More pressing matters need to be adressed in aviation in my mind.
Yes we all know that english is the official aviation language, but the rather snotty way some, i said some british or indeed other english speaking countries go about this is tiring to listen to.
People not fluent in english are often mocked or looked down upon, conveniently forgetting the fact that they themselves often are monolingual.
Yes in an ideal world we would all be speaking one language, but that would take away so much of the richness languages have in them. This often not seen by monolinguists.
And lets be honest here, aircraft aren't exactly flying into one another on a daily, weekly, or even monthly basis in these countries.
More pressing matters need to be adressed in aviation in my mind.
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Many years ago I flew Dash 8 for Air Canada Jazz, based in Montreal. Flying into small northern Quebec airports always made me uneasy. Joining the traffic pattern, either ifr or vfr, we would make our freq reports in english(capt and fo only english speaking). A number of Beechcraft, Navajos coming in at the same time speaking only French, and it being only a radio controlled airport made for some interesting times. Radio operator would give us only the basic info in english but aircraft flying in the area were supposed to keep separation from each other. I can only assume the French speaking aircraft worked it out to keep separation from us English speakers. Needles to say our situational awareness wasn't the greatest. But in my short time there, there were no near misses so I suppose it makes speaking French on freq ok
@ goc...
Whenever I fly in Quebec (or France) I use French as the primary language (my choice).
However when I fly into and uncontrolled airport in Quebec and I hear both languages being used on the frequency then I do all my coms in both languages so that all parties understand the message clearly.
I'll add the following... I believe most commercial pilots that fly mainly in Quebec also understand English and probably knew and understood everything you said on the radio.
However when I fly into and uncontrolled airport in Quebec and I hear both languages being used on the frequency then I do all my coms in both languages so that all parties understand the message clearly.
I'll add the following... I believe most commercial pilots that fly mainly in Quebec also understand English and probably knew and understood everything you said on the radio.
