US Congress Moves to Block Norwegian Longhaul from US Expansion
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Union funded fuss
This whole issue is being driven the Airline union in the US they have have paid out in 'election campaign funds' $203,000 to secure backing in the lower house to block Norwegian approval of NAI route licences.
The fact is the US administration know there are no legitimate grounds to block this application, if they were, they would have done so by now!!
Norwegian is fully compliant with the European requirement for open skies and law makers both sides of the pond know it
Norwegians progress will be at the expense of others and they will succeed or fail on the quality and value for money they provide. London is the big test they need to attract passengers who are not Scandinavians (predisposed to flying with Norwegian) to a brand that is not well know globally or even nationally outside of the LGW catchment area, there will be feed traffic from Norwegians network with transit facilities but 90%+ will start/end the flight at LGW
The fact is the US administration know there are no legitimate grounds to block this application, if they were, they would have done so by now!!
Norwegian is fully compliant with the European requirement for open skies and law makers both sides of the pond know it
Norwegians progress will be at the expense of others and they will succeed or fail on the quality and value for money they provide. London is the big test they need to attract passengers who are not Scandinavians (predisposed to flying with Norwegian) to a brand that is not well know globally or even nationally outside of the LGW catchment area, there will be feed traffic from Norwegians network with transit facilities but 90%+ will start/end the flight at LGW
Last edited by LNIDA; 20th Jun 2014 at 07:29.
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The fact is the US administration know there are no legitimate grounds to block this application, if they were, they would have done so by now!!
The issue is still pending before DOT, DOT hasn't yet ruled on the application.
Last edited by olasek; 20th Jun 2014 at 22:44.
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Banner add from Norwegian booking page
Please note that all of Norwegian’s long-haul routes between the US and the UK are operated by Norwegian Air Shuttle, which has all the necessary permits to fly to and from the US. Our subsidiary is still waiting for an approval from the US Department of Transportation (DOT), but this doesn't affect our operations.
The above is cut & paste from the headline on the Norwegiam.com home page
These will be the same aircraft & crews using the same procedures, manuals, maintenance facilities, operational oversight, the only difference is that they are operated by NAS rather than NAI
DOT heel dragging at the behest of union/airline lobbying does not paint the US in a good light.
The above is cut & paste from the headline on the Norwegiam.com home page
These will be the same aircraft & crews using the same procedures, manuals, maintenance facilities, operational oversight, the only difference is that they are operated by NAS rather than NAI
DOT heel dragging at the behest of union/airline lobbying does not paint the US in a good light.
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I agree with ALPA's position, but using the Congress to pursue it is silly. We'd all look and smell cleaner if we left NW to their own plan, slightly opened the gate under Fifth Rules and Open Skies - and then let them flunk on their own. With a firm grip on the economics my friends, their model cannot 'fly' any longer than they can continue to pump in huge volumes of cash. The might sustain it for three months, perhaps a bit more of they open during the High Season, but they cannot do it year-round. Perhaps adding that one requirement, year round service at a certain level would be enough to send them packing. No, we cannot just 'outlaw' and airline or a business model that we - mostly our pilots and FAs - do not like. The way to rid ourselves of this annoyance is to allow them, hold them to the best of standards (or more?) year round and when they cannot (or will not) comply, yank their operating certificate. By convention and treaty we cannot really just refuse them. What we CAN do is hold them accountable for every rule and regulation in the substantial book and yank if they do not comply with every period and comma therein. I do not want them either, but we must follow the rules, just as we will ask them to do. It can work - and they cannot comply. I would not want to be their designated Primary Operations Inspector (or whatever the current term may be). Enforce ALL of the part 121 regulations, as well as those dealing with maintenance - ALL of them, and these folks will soon go away. Their business model simply won't 'fly' in the lower 48 states. 
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NO FLY ZONE
Agree with you 100% let the market decide so long as any inspection is consistent with that applied to all other airlines, BTW they been operating to the USA from Scandinavia (clue its NE of England where Disney's Frozen movie was modelled and home to 95% of Telsa sales in Europe) for over a year now, if that counts for year round.
7th Dreamliner delivered at the weekend
7th Dreamliner delivered at the weekend
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"What we CAN do is hold them accountable for every rule and regulation in the substantial book and yank if they do not comply with every period and comma therein."
Really? There won't be many airlines flying in the "good 'ol US of A" then.
I have no doubt that Norwegian Airlines will do as the American carriers do, ie when it is a lean season on a route they will use their aircraft on more profitable fat season route.
They have won this Norwegian is announced as the Best Low Cost Airline in Europe at the 2013 World Airline Awards
and this
Norwegian wins international award for best in-flight WiFi - Norwegian
and this (scroll down the page
germanwings, Norwegian, Atlasjet Ukraine win Euro ANNIEs 2014
Just for starters over the last couple of years. So this is competition for all carriers to watch out for and get their acts together. The American carriers will only be slightly worried for now but as Norwegian build up flights and destinations they will nibble more and more at the American carrier's heels.
All carriers will not be able to compete with prices that Norwegian offer, eg $268 LAX to ARN! They will have to compete and win in other aspects of airline operations.
So to use the phrase - Step up to the plate - and compete!
Really? There won't be many airlines flying in the "good 'ol US of A" then.
I have no doubt that Norwegian Airlines will do as the American carriers do, ie when it is a lean season on a route they will use their aircraft on more profitable fat season route.
They have won this Norwegian is announced as the Best Low Cost Airline in Europe at the 2013 World Airline Awards
and this
Norwegian wins international award for best in-flight WiFi - Norwegian
and this (scroll down the page
germanwings, Norwegian, Atlasjet Ukraine win Euro ANNIEs 2014
Just for starters over the last couple of years. So this is competition for all carriers to watch out for and get their acts together. The American carriers will only be slightly worried for now but as Norwegian build up flights and destinations they will nibble more and more at the American carrier's heels.
All carriers will not be able to compete with prices that Norwegian offer, eg $268 LAX to ARN! They will have to compete and win in other aspects of airline operations.
So to use the phrase - Step up to the plate - and compete!
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No Fly Zone - re "let them flunk on their own"...their biggest issue right now on longhaul is delays...eg just recently a 787 was stranded for 40 hours waiting for spare parts (Boeing maintenance contract...they store parts anywhere but where they are needed, apparently). If this happens once in a while, no problem, pax forget, but scandinavian business travellers are already very aware of the fact that NAS has been struggling to get their dreamliners to arrive on time (and we're talking days here, not hours...). It doesnt help that they only have 6, or 7 aircraft, and that their business model requires the aircraft to be in the air virtually continuously, leaving little time for unplanned maintenance. If they manage to scare away all business travellers they will flunk...but yes I fully agree, they should be allowed to try. Yet I also think they should offer decent contracts.
LNIDA: You should be ashamed by forwarding the Norwegian lies on this once proud forum that consists of quite a few pilots. In mine and my collegues eyes you are nothing but a scab that are stabbing us in the back and assists the management in executing their grand devide and conquer plan. Karma will catch up with you one day.
LaHood speaks out
The Hill ran an opinion editorial written by former Department of Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood today. In the piece, titled “Many Questions Still Unanswered about Norwegian Air’s Impact on Fair Competition,” LaHood says fair competition is one of the founding principles of Open Skies—and he should know, being the authority who oversaw the signing of Open Skies agreements with 16 different countries during his tenure. He raises a number of questions, and asserts: “While I am withholding final judgment until more facts become available, NAI’s proposal appears contrary to a key provision in our EU Second Stage agreement that ensured new commercial opportunities created by the agreement could not be exploited to subvert labor standards and create an unfair competitive environment.”
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RTO
Show me a lie????
Some people are living in the misguided belief that Norwegian are operating akin to a Liberian flag of convenience, I meet long haul crew in our crew rooms on a regular basis and all seem happy, turnover of staff is next to non existent, they are a European airline with staff from dozens of different countries from around Europe and further afield I'm told our American cabin crew earn more than they can in the US and again are happy, yes the Dream liner reliability is an on going issue ditto spares, but i guess that's the risk when you buy new Boeing......lets see what happens over the Summer
Some people are living in the misguided belief that Norwegian are operating akin to a Liberian flag of convenience, I meet long haul crew in our crew rooms on a regular basis and all seem happy, turnover of staff is next to non existent, they are a European airline with staff from dozens of different countries from around Europe and further afield I'm told our American cabin crew earn more than they can in the US and again are happy, yes the Dream liner reliability is an on going issue ditto spares, but i guess that's the risk when you buy new Boeing......lets see what happens over the Summer
Last edited by LNIDA; 27th Jun 2014 at 21:23. Reason: correction from captplaystation aka the boss
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let the market decide
is a phrase that only partly works with aviation.
Aviation as a totally free market is a terrible idea.
race for the bottom and all.
This doesn't necessarily apply to NA but geez, let's not be thinking the industry doesn't need regulation
Aviation as a totally free market is a terrible idea.
race for the bottom and all.
This doesn't necessarily apply to NA but geez, let's not be thinking the industry doesn't need regulation
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Me Duck
Of course it needs regulation to ensure safe practice, but applying regulation by insisting on employment practices when those who seek it don't even apply it in their back yard smells of protectionism.
There are no cages that lock people into employment with Norwegian, yes of course there are industry standard bonds but not the sort of manacles that you see in Irish and some English airlines
The Norwegian culture is very much if you don't want to be here we'd rather you weren't here. It's not perfect of course, but our cousins from over the pond have only themselves to fear.
There are no cages that lock people into employment with Norwegian, yes of course there are industry standard bonds but not the sort of manacles that you see in Irish and some English airlines
The Norwegian culture is very much if you don't want to be here we'd rather you weren't here. It's not perfect of course, but our cousins from over the pond have only themselves to fear.
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LNIDA just because the crew are happy does not make it right? Many of them are new on type and many from Ryanair of course they are happy 
If you want to talk about pay their fixed salary is fairly modest for long haul wide body operations, especially if they are paying a fair amount of tax. We are not debating their feelings we are debating their contractual setup and our future.
It can not in my view be regarded as normal or acceptable for any airline from one country to fly between a second and third country while being regulated in a completely separate fourth country plus have contracts from a completely different continent.
The unions have every right to ask that such obscure setups be investigated. Also worth keeping in mind it is both the american and the european pilot unions lobbying.
I believe NAS is a good company which doesn't need to get involved in some of these obscure setups. But this is not about NAS or NAI or NHL etc.
Remember blocking NAS is not the agenda. This is actually not so much about NAS as it is about the broader issue. The agenda is to prevent the development of a system where a corporations can shop around globally and then mix and match various jurisdictions for the purposes of regulation, business, labour laws etc etc.
If a Chinese company started up in LGW next week with flying LGW to OSL whilst regulated in Jamaica with crews contracts from middle Africa I have no doubt that in my humble opinion every Pilot in the UK would be marching on the streets.
I personally suspect that NAS will be given approval once they tidy things up a little bit. Most probably one option is to put everything in Ireland including crew contracts. I guess some might regard the whole picking a fight as good publicity by NAS for NAS!!!!
If you want to talk about pay their fixed salary is fairly modest for long haul wide body operations, especially if they are paying a fair amount of tax. We are not debating their feelings we are debating their contractual setup and our future. It can not in my view be regarded as normal or acceptable for any airline from one country to fly between a second and third country while being regulated in a completely separate fourth country plus have contracts from a completely different continent.
The unions have every right to ask that such obscure setups be investigated. Also worth keeping in mind it is both the american and the european pilot unions lobbying.
I believe NAS is a good company which doesn't need to get involved in some of these obscure setups. But this is not about NAS or NAI or NHL etc.
Remember blocking NAS is not the agenda. This is actually not so much about NAS as it is about the broader issue. The agenda is to prevent the development of a system where a corporations can shop around globally and then mix and match various jurisdictions for the purposes of regulation, business, labour laws etc etc.
If a Chinese company started up in LGW next week with flying LGW to OSL whilst regulated in Jamaica with crews contracts from middle Africa I have no doubt that in my humble opinion every Pilot in the UK would be marching on the streets.
I personally suspect that NAS will be given approval once they tidy things up a little bit. Most probably one option is to put everything in Ireland including crew contracts. I guess some might regard the whole picking a fight as good publicity by NAS for NAS!!!!
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LNIDA
The T's & C's in the less glossy US carriers are pretty woeful. As you say, before casting aspersions on NAS contracts in Singapore/Bangkok (which are indeed a little on the light side for flying a wide body, but then again so is the 787
) they should perhaps tackle the cr@p on offer in their own back yard.
US national NAS/NAI CC I have spoken to , are well pissed with all of this. . .go figure.
However, Widebdy I am also in total agreement with you. Basically, ladies & gentle(?)men. . . we are all being screwed . . .or hadn't you noticed
The T's & C's in the less glossy US carriers are pretty woeful. As you say, before casting aspersions on NAS contracts in Singapore/Bangkok (which are indeed a little on the light side for flying a wide body, but then again so is the 787
) they should perhaps tackle the cr@p on offer in their own back yard.US national NAS/NAI CC I have spoken to , are well pissed with all of this. . .go figure.
However, Widebdy I am also in total agreement with you. Basically, ladies & gentle(?)men. . . we are all being screwed . . .or hadn't you noticed
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Widebody
I am not sure that is the case. The EASA and local regulators such as UK CAA would check that all their safety requirements were being met (these are not driven by location of business). But apart from those safety/regulatory issues, I don't see any reasons to protest. Is it any different to regionals choosing which US right to work state they are based in? Their Ts&Cs are not too brilliant either.
Multinational companies have been making this type of choice of location of their HQ and business units for tax purposes for many decades. Provided all the safety regulations of the airspaces flown in are met, why is the multinational air carrier business different?
If a Chinese company started up in LGW next week with flying LGW to OSL whilst regulated in Jamaica with crews contracts from middle Africa I have no doubt that in my humble opinion every Pilot in the UK would be marching on the streets.
Multinational companies have been making this type of choice of location of their HQ and business units for tax purposes for many decades. Provided all the safety regulations of the airspaces flown in are met, why is the multinational air carrier business different?
