US Pilot Arrested for Loaded Handgun in Carry On
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May I offer perspective as a Canadian gun owner (long guns as well as hand guns):
First: Yes the US absolutely cares about those who export guns and gun parts out of the country. It all has to do with ITAR. They do set up exit checks at land borders periodically to check just for this. They (DHS) has been known to camp out at parking lots of gun shows near the border and record Canadian plates.
Second: Gun laws, especially for handguns (restricted firearms), are very strict in Canada. We may only take our restricted firearms to a range, gunsmith, or border (for entry in to the USA for competitions). There are narrow exceptions for those in the armored car business or those who work in the wilderness. The charges this guy faces could mean prison time, or at least some hefty fines and a criminal record. Adding to his woes is that guns with barrels under 4.2" are prohibited.
Third: If he declared the gun to customs when entering Canada, he would of had the chance to fill out the proper paperwork or even surrender it. There are procedures for bringing guns into Canada. American hunters or those driving to Alaska do it all the time.
I think the pilot may have simply forgot the gun was in his bag. He may usually leave it in his car at the airport when he is away flying. It was not caught in the US because of the trusted crew member program, and he literally only realized it when he had to put it through the scanner for the first time in Calgary. It sucks, but ignorance is no excuse for the law, especially when in another country.
First: Yes the US absolutely cares about those who export guns and gun parts out of the country. It all has to do with ITAR. They do set up exit checks at land borders periodically to check just for this. They (DHS) has been known to camp out at parking lots of gun shows near the border and record Canadian plates.
Second: Gun laws, especially for handguns (restricted firearms), are very strict in Canada. We may only take our restricted firearms to a range, gunsmith, or border (for entry in to the USA for competitions). There are narrow exceptions for those in the armored car business or those who work in the wilderness. The charges this guy faces could mean prison time, or at least some hefty fines and a criminal record. Adding to his woes is that guns with barrels under 4.2" are prohibited.
Third: If he declared the gun to customs when entering Canada, he would of had the chance to fill out the proper paperwork or even surrender it. There are procedures for bringing guns into Canada. American hunters or those driving to Alaska do it all the time.
I think the pilot may have simply forgot the gun was in his bag. He may usually leave it in his car at the airport when he is away flying. It was not caught in the US because of the trusted crew member program, and he literally only realized it when he had to put it through the scanner for the first time in Calgary. It sucks, but ignorance is no excuse for the law, especially when in another country.
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In the US, where the right of adults to carry a gun unless specifically disqualified by some past deed, etc, is assumed
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[/QUOTE]Said pilot went through a "known crew member" line in the US to make it inside the sterile area. This program bypasses security for pilots and flight attendants who present proper badging. There is some random searches, but mostly it speeds you through the process effortlessly.[/QUOTE]
KCM does not "bypass security", and it is unfortunate to say that it does in a public forum such as this.
KCM is a different form of security.
Who cares about a pilot's nail clippers? On the other hand it is a very good idea to make sure that people walking around an airport in uniform are who they claim to be. KCM is exactly the kind of security that should be applied to flight crew.
Unfortunatly ANY disturbed employee is going to have a way to get something airside, and pax type screening will not fix that.
KCM does not "bypass security", and it is unfortunate to say that it does in a public forum such as this.
KCM is a different form of security.
Who cares about a pilot's nail clippers? On the other hand it is a very good idea to make sure that people walking around an airport in uniform are who they claim to be. KCM is exactly the kind of security that should be applied to flight crew.
Unfortunatly ANY disturbed employee is going to have a way to get something airside, and pax type screening will not fix that.
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Unfortunately, he is now branded as a criminal
I don't want those nutters exporting their gun culture when they travel, be they pilot or passenger, I am glad he was caught and hope he does'nt weasel out of it.
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Despite the cultural differences you mentioned, US americans are very much aware of the various restrictions that exist even in the US. Few people consciously attempt to carry an unauthorised gun into a school, a federal court, or on board an aircraft. They do understand that carrying a gun in their log cabin in Oklahoma is different from the White House
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" Clearly no cannon " . . . well that makes me feel a lot safer. I don't really care about the finer details of slug size, grains, muzzle velocity that many experts seem to be hung up on. Just semantics. If it can kill me in one shot then I see no difference in a 'peashooter' 380 or a 50 cal.
This guy may have carried into Canada unknowingly but I won't give him the benefit of the doubt he was ignorant when he went south again. One night in a hotel would be ample time for me to remember or physically eyeball a weapon I forgot to leave in my car. This will be expensive for him hopefully.
This guy may have carried into Canada unknowingly but I won't give him the benefit of the doubt he was ignorant when he went south again. One night in a hotel would be ample time for me to remember or physically eyeball a weapon I forgot to leave in my car. This will be expensive for him hopefully.
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Simma' down naa'
Lone Ranger is an interesting choice of Nom de Plume for a hoplophobe, no?
Oh, and calm down Francis, the guy likely made a mistake without criminal intent and will answer rather dearly for it, no reason to project your neurosis into it.
Oh, and calm down Francis, the guy likely made a mistake without criminal intent and will answer rather dearly for it, no reason to project your neurosis into it.
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First off he should have never carried this gun on International flights outside of US jurisdiction.
This is in the training.
Then in his layover if this was a mistake why go through security on that side.
He had to know it would be questioned.
Personally the FFDO program is good and easy to get, but the recurrent status to keep is not worth the time.
I have better things to do on my off days than play with government red tape.
One funny side to this,if you are a FFDO you can carry a gun, but any tools you carry over 7 inches long are forbidden, like a flat blade screwdriver or extension you may need to manual start.
TSA cant see the forest for the trees.
Ask any TSA they hate the ones that caused this just as much as we do,
Good for them they have many jobs, bad for all the rest of us.
Before 911 flying was fun paid well and was a good job.
The Whacko religious ones changed all of this for us.
There would never be a FFDO program if this had not happened.
When we point the fingers at each other lets all remember the root cause.
This is in the training.
Then in his layover if this was a mistake why go through security on that side.
He had to know it would be questioned.
Personally the FFDO program is good and easy to get, but the recurrent status to keep is not worth the time.
I have better things to do on my off days than play with government red tape.
One funny side to this,if you are a FFDO you can carry a gun, but any tools you carry over 7 inches long are forbidden, like a flat blade screwdriver or extension you may need to manual start.
TSA cant see the forest for the trees.
Ask any TSA they hate the ones that caused this just as much as we do,
Good for them they have many jobs, bad for all the rest of us.
Before 911 flying was fun paid well and was a good job.
The Whacko religious ones changed all of this for us.
There would never be a FFDO program if this had not happened.
When we point the fingers at each other lets all remember the root cause.
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FFDO
I understand how that could happen because it happened to me before. I was an FFDO for 6 years and we had trouble finding places to store the weapon on international flights. But we finally had places to store it but you cant forget to do it.
When you do many flights domestic, International, Domestic , International flight combinations, taking your gun out when home, putting it back, you can make mistake.
No excuse but can happen.
I normally kept my weapon in my flight box, the black square pilot kit not a suit case.
One day I was flying to Lima Peru, I checked my flight box and the weapon wasn't there, all was good. I went through normal security without trouble. When we got to Lima the crew goes through a short radar scan as well.
After I got to my room, I opened up my suit case for a change of close and low and behold, there it was, "MY WEAPON, damn I was shocked. I must have tossed it in my suitcase and forgot I didn't it.
I made it through normal US security with the weapon in my suitcase, and another in LIMA, and now I have serious trouble..!
Now I have a loaded weapon, in a foreign country, no choice but to man up.
I called my handler, a special type person came to my hotel, took my weapon and it was over. (not really over)
I was placed on Non Active status, waiting for my weapon to get back. Was called to the airport I left the country, they wanted to know how I made it through normal screening, no charges were filed and it was not made public.
That happened right before I was going to China, while waiting for the event to clear, they asked me to turn in my cread, so I packed it up, shipped it in and said, have a nice day...the end.
I will say, all the training, recurrent, risks, as a volunteer I would not do it again.
So the pilot that got caught, will have trouble, I am glad I didn't end up like that.
Happy flying.
When you do many flights domestic, International, Domestic , International flight combinations, taking your gun out when home, putting it back, you can make mistake.
No excuse but can happen.
I normally kept my weapon in my flight box, the black square pilot kit not a suit case.
One day I was flying to Lima Peru, I checked my flight box and the weapon wasn't there, all was good. I went through normal security without trouble. When we got to Lima the crew goes through a short radar scan as well.
After I got to my room, I opened up my suit case for a change of close and low and behold, there it was, "MY WEAPON, damn I was shocked. I must have tossed it in my suitcase and forgot I didn't it.
I made it through normal US security with the weapon in my suitcase, and another in LIMA, and now I have serious trouble..!
Now I have a loaded weapon, in a foreign country, no choice but to man up.
I called my handler, a special type person came to my hotel, took my weapon and it was over. (not really over)
I was placed on Non Active status, waiting for my weapon to get back. Was called to the airport I left the country, they wanted to know how I made it through normal screening, no charges were filed and it was not made public.
That happened right before I was going to China, while waiting for the event to clear, they asked me to turn in my cread, so I packed it up, shipped it in and said, have a nice day...the end.
I will say, all the training, recurrent, risks, as a volunteer I would not do it again.
So the pilot that got caught, will have trouble, I am glad I didn't end up like that.
Happy flying.
Last edited by On Final; 5th Apr 2014 at 04:36. Reason: .
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SLFinAZ
Yeah, that was a bad link, the only .38 I had experience with would of been the +p out of a 4" 357 SW revolver at the range. I feel if you are going to carry or own a firearm you should have a good understanding of the ballistics and this was sort of my point. From a bit of research the FFDO required firearm is a H&K .40, clearly distinguishable when checked. I own a P226 .40, great gun. This has been a bit of a thread drift. I suppose it got my interest when "nonsense" called the .380 a (hand cannon).
None the less, the pilot of topic was not a FFDO, did not declare the firearm and it was not a FFDO approved firearm. Does not look good. Clearly this man is in hot water.
Anyone who owns a gun should know EXACTLY where it is, the condition it is in and the potential damage done from discharging it. Any responsible gun owner would know this. Does not matter what country you are from. Many here have not had the experience with a hand gun you or I have had (consider myself a novice).
Another thread drift, can anyone give a bit of detail into FFDO requal requirements? Freaking ammo is expensive and I would spend much more time at the range if money and time permitted.
None the less, the pilot of topic was not a FFDO, did not declare the firearm and it was not a FFDO approved firearm. Does not look good. Clearly this man is in hot water.
Anyone who owns a gun should know EXACTLY where it is, the condition it is in and the potential damage done from discharging it. Any responsible gun owner would know this. Does not matter what country you are from. Many here have not had the experience with a hand gun you or I have had (consider myself a novice).
Another thread drift, can anyone give a bit of detail into FFDO requal requirements? Freaking ammo is expensive and I would spend much more time at the range if money and time permitted.
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@OnFinal
I made it through normal US security with the weapon in my suitcase, and another in LIMA, and now I have serious trouble..!
Now I have a loaded weapon, in a foreign country, no choice but to man up.
Now I have a loaded weapon, in a foreign country, no choice but to man up.
You made a mistake and were willing to face the possible consequences, which is why things probably turned out as well as they did.
This guy did not and I have a sense that things won't turn out as well for him. I'm always sorry to see a colleague toss their career in the dumper, but anyone carrying weapons when they're not in the FFDO program probably deserves their fate.
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Let me first say that the guy broke the law, and whether out of stupidity or intent, he should be held accountable, and I won't gloat regardless of what happens as a result. That probably defines me as a "nutter" in some circles, but so be it.
Before this thread deteriorates to Jet Blast level let me inject some recent facts for the gun-hating ideologues...not that facts always matter to blind ideologues on either side of the argument.
What Happened to Chicago’s Murder Rate After Illinois Upheld Concealed Carry and Why it Matters
For what its worth, I have been transporting firearms legally into and out of Canada for years with the proper paperwork and government fees, and the US government could care less when leaving or returning with said firearms.
Before this thread deteriorates to Jet Blast level let me inject some recent facts for the gun-hating ideologues...not that facts always matter to blind ideologues on either side of the argument.
What Happened to Chicago’s Murder Rate After Illinois Upheld Concealed Carry and Why it Matters
For what its worth, I have been transporting firearms legally into and out of Canada for years with the proper paperwork and government fees, and the US government could care less when leaving or returning with said firearms.
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"For what its worth, I have been transporting firearms legally into and out of Canada for years with the proper paperwork and government fees, and the US government could care less when leaving or returning with said firearms."
Oro-o says otherwise but I am with you and any firearm.
Some might not look like they care but get the paperwork wrong or gave none and they more than dare. People have spent years in jail for it.
Oro-o says otherwise but I am with you and any firearm.
Some might not look like they care but get the paperwork wrong or gave none and they more than dare. People have spent years in jail for it.
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This part of why I was never interested in the FFDO program. It's just another thing to worry about and keep track of without getting paid one red cent extra. TBNT.
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Ironic the comments about it being an innocent mistake. One of my crew members declared a salad crossing into the US. Pulled over for secondary, the officer noticed that it was an unassembled salad, and thus NOT a salad. $500 fine. Extrapolate the offence, and this gunman would be looking at several hundred years in jail given the same level of "understanding" by the authorities.
Thread Starter
Canada is a pretty much a live and let live place as far as dumb mistakes are concerned.
There's a bunch of charges; so plea bargaining and expressions of remorse may make the criminal charges go away -- maybe with conditional discharge. Could end up with a fat customs fine, $10,000 or so, plus $10-20K for defense lawyer.
If he had driven up to Canada Customs without declaring, he'd likely have to hitchhike home.
There's a bunch of charges; so plea bargaining and expressions of remorse may make the criminal charges go away -- maybe with conditional discharge. Could end up with a fat customs fine, $10,000 or so, plus $10-20K for defense lawyer.
If he had driven up to Canada Customs without declaring, he'd likely have to hitchhike home.
You don't think someone who takes a loaded gun onto a passenger aircraft is a bad guy?