US Air PHL
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The captain of a KLM DC8 overheard the incident on radio. He held his aircraft at Kemayoran (as was) and went to the Indonesian immigration authorities to demand that he could casevac to Singapore.
And back then, you didn't need your passport to deal with Indonesian immigration. A fiver would've sufficed.
Anyway, in emergencies, passengers are going to do what passengers are going to do. If you design procedures based on perfectly behaved passengers, well, prepare to be surprised.
There have been lots of cabin design and procedure changes over the years because of new insight about how passengers actually react in real life situations. Pushing, shoving, blocking exits, grabbing bags, inflating life vests inside the cabin, ignoring commands, fighting with flight attendants, fighting with each other, etc., etc.
Back when I was flying A320s we had a saying that TOGA always works. If anything doesn't look right just push it up. With the kind of winds they were having I probably would have been at TOGA anyway since that was our procedure for wind shear. It sounds like the captain really was asleep.
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In the earlier part of this thread there was a lot of condemnation of PAX taking their handbags off the plane during evacuation and some folks saying they should be banned from flying again.
It looks to me from the pictures that they were carrying handbags not luggage. Presumably this baggage was stowed under seat in front and ready to grab without opening overhead stowage.
How would you survive if evacuated from an aircraft at a location thousands of miles from home, with no cash, no wallet, no credit cards, no passport, no driver license, no car keys, no house keys, no flight tickets, no hotel confirmation, no essential medication, no inhaler, etc? You would be just an anonymous bum that no-one can help.
How many days might it take for the authorities to inspect, verify and deliver your bag to you, or worse, it just gets burnt up in a post evacuation fire?
Most folks put all that survival paperwork and essential stuff in a grab-bag for just such an emergency. It won’t all go in your pocket, and it will be a high personal priority to take it with you.
The balance of risk and reward suggests that it is far preferable to deplane with a grab bag than be left at the mercy of circumstances. Most people know this, and despite what it might say in the flight “safety” briefing, most people will ignore it and take a grab bag. They know it makes sense.
It looks to me from the pictures that they were carrying handbags not luggage. Presumably this baggage was stowed under seat in front and ready to grab without opening overhead stowage.
How would you survive if evacuated from an aircraft at a location thousands of miles from home, with no cash, no wallet, no credit cards, no passport, no driver license, no car keys, no house keys, no flight tickets, no hotel confirmation, no essential medication, no inhaler, etc? You would be just an anonymous bum that no-one can help.
How many days might it take for the authorities to inspect, verify and deliver your bag to you, or worse, it just gets burnt up in a post evacuation fire?
Most folks put all that survival paperwork and essential stuff in a grab-bag for just such an emergency. It won’t all go in your pocket, and it will be a high personal priority to take it with you.
The balance of risk and reward suggests that it is far preferable to deplane with a grab bag than be left at the mercy of circumstances. Most people know this, and despite what it might say in the flight “safety” briefing, most people will ignore it and take a grab bag. They know it makes sense.
I notice in your example you are justifying pax getting their bags under the seat in a fire situation prior to evacuation "How many days might it take for the authorities to inspect, verify and deliver your bag to you, or worse, it just gets burnt up in a post evacuation fire."
Based on tragedies in the past where pax died because others were blocking due to getting their stuff instead of going as fast as possible toward an exit....my policy that I have thought of in advance is this...if there is a fire and you are blocking me to get your stuff. I use all my force to knock you over and you get trampled by me and everyone else around as we move toward the exit and I will do it. I suggest this policy for everyone here as seconds matter.
We will worry about the hotel later. You might not have to.
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This is a very natural & logical thinking. But unfortunately, a few decades of research has also shown that this is also the wrong thing to do, because by knocking people down (i.e., those you perceive to be blocking you), you are turning the evacuation process into a "competitive evacuation" -- a "free for all" where everyone is pushing those in front, stampeding in a rush to get to the exit door.
It might not be a "guy getting a bag" in front of you, but maybe a mother trying to attend to her baby, or a kid that has stumbled, or an elderly person who's confused. Or maybe even a flight attendant who's assisting someone else. Are you going to knock them all down?
The research findings are a bit counterintuitive. But basically, if you have a small opening (door), and a large number of people whore are competing to get out of the same door, you will end up in a "jam" situation where everyone blocks everyone else.
So instead of getting out faster, you and everyone else end up getting trapped in the cabin. This has in the past resulted in total blockage of the exit doors, leading to numerous fatalities.
For further reading see the Cranfield experimental research done in the UK some years ago in response to the 1985 British Airtours Flight 28M tragedy in Manchester. This was a rejected takeoff situation after an engine fire, where most passengers on the flight perished right on the runway due to smoke inhalation, as they were unable to quickly exit the plane.
There should have been enough time to evacuate the plane even with some door problems that they had, but the free-for-all "stampede" to the exit door trapped numerous people inside.
Cabin crews are trained to be extremely assertive in preventing this from happening and to maintain an orderly evacuation.
Your best bet to exit, as well as the best bet for all your fellow passengers, is to follow cabin crew instructions and to have the most orderly, cooperative exit possible.
It might not be a "guy getting a bag" in front of you, but maybe a mother trying to attend to her baby, or a kid that has stumbled, or an elderly person who's confused. Or maybe even a flight attendant who's assisting someone else. Are you going to knock them all down?
The research findings are a bit counterintuitive. But basically, if you have a small opening (door), and a large number of people whore are competing to get out of the same door, you will end up in a "jam" situation where everyone blocks everyone else.
So instead of getting out faster, you and everyone else end up getting trapped in the cabin. This has in the past resulted in total blockage of the exit doors, leading to numerous fatalities.
For further reading see the Cranfield experimental research done in the UK some years ago in response to the 1985 British Airtours Flight 28M tragedy in Manchester. This was a rejected takeoff situation after an engine fire, where most passengers on the flight perished right on the runway due to smoke inhalation, as they were unable to quickly exit the plane.
There should have been enough time to evacuate the plane even with some door problems that they had, but the free-for-all "stampede" to the exit door trapped numerous people inside.
Cabin crews are trained to be extremely assertive in preventing this from happening and to maintain an orderly evacuation.
Your best bet to exit, as well as the best bet for all your fellow passengers, is to follow cabin crew instructions and to have the most orderly, cooperative exit possible.
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China Airlines crew did an awesome job in this evacuation on Okinawa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qyZFASOAe0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qyZFASOAe0
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I don't understand all those who get on the aircraft and feel the need to slob out immediately. Their shoes come off, they seem to have half their clothes off etc.
Me personally, I never take my jacket off until we are safely airborne. If there was a need to evacuate the aircraft I would prefer not to be doing it in my sock or bare feet. The jacket also ensures I have my vitals for afterwards.
I never take my shoes off in flight. I don't want other people pi$$ all over my socks. The washrooms are pretty disgusting at times and when you as the cabin crew to clean them they can get really uppity about it.
Me personally, I never take my jacket off until we are safely airborne. If there was a need to evacuate the aircraft I would prefer not to be doing it in my sock or bare feet. The jacket also ensures I have my vitals for afterwards.
I never take my shoes off in flight. I don't want other people pi$$ all over my socks. The washrooms are pretty disgusting at times and when you as the cabin crew to clean them they can get really uppity about it.
Glendale:
why should any passenger trust the airlines to take care of their important stuff? They can't, and many don't. Some probably do.
Once the story of a few missing laptops or brief cases goes viral, which they have already in this overly connected age, the impression is that the airline industry can't be trusted. You can't fight that by being outraged on PPRuNe.
As a passenger, you take care of yourself. You have to, nobody else will.
There a ladies' purses that are larger than the small over the shoulder laptop carrier that I limit myself to on my very rare trips in an commercial airliner.
I'll take that with me, thanks, and let the outraged on PPRuNe continue to waste bandwidth.
@peekay: thanks for that explanation on systems and your views on evacuation.
why should any passenger trust the airlines to take care of their important stuff? They can't, and many don't. Some probably do.
Once the story of a few missing laptops or brief cases goes viral, which they have already in this overly connected age, the impression is that the airline industry can't be trusted. You can't fight that by being outraged on PPRuNe.
As a passenger, you take care of yourself. You have to, nobody else will.
There a ladies' purses that are larger than the small over the shoulder laptop carrier that I limit myself to on my very rare trips in an commercial airliner.
I'll take that with me, thanks, and let the outraged on PPRuNe continue to waste bandwidth.
@peekay: thanks for that explanation on systems and your views on evacuation.
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From what you read in the daily papers l'm surprised that anyone checks anything in.....let alone leave it on a plane.
If an Airport is supposed to be sooooooo secure and safe. Then why do you always read about baggage handlers at major western airport's treating passengers belongings as a street flee market. Everything for the taking.
Anything left on the plane WILL disappear.....
http://nypost.com/2014/12/03/luggage...ssenger-goods/
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headline...om-passengers/
http://articles.latimes.com/2014/mar...theft-20140328
I could go on....You know it, they know it.
If an Airport is supposed to be sooooooo secure and safe. Then why do you always read about baggage handlers at major western airport's treating passengers belongings as a street flee market. Everything for the taking.
Anything left on the plane WILL disappear.....
http://nypost.com/2014/12/03/luggage...ssenger-goods/
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headline...om-passengers/
http://articles.latimes.com/2014/mar...theft-20140328
I could go on....You know it, they know it.
Last edited by multycpl; 22nd Dec 2014 at 17:26.
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Lonewolf-50
Why should anyone trust the airlines at all. OH< that's right. NO ONE has been killed in an accident on a US airline in years.
Losing luggage? puhlease.
And I mentioned REASONABLE sized purses, not giant purses.
I realize some people like to argue and that some have lost all perspective. Lose a laptop...big freaking deal.
Lose your life because someone has to get their suitcase with their laptop, NOW THAT's a big deal
Why should anyone trust the airlines at all. OH< that's right. NO ONE has been killed in an accident on a US airline in years.
Losing luggage? puhlease.
And I mentioned REASONABLE sized purses, not giant purses.
I realize some people like to argue and that some have lost all perspective. Lose a laptop...big freaking deal.
Lose your life because someone has to get their suitcase with their laptop, NOW THAT's a big deal
Glendale, what do you mean "suitcase" as that isn't what I carry on.
Luggage goes in checked baggage for me.
I have found that with the new computerized tagging and such, one of the few things that has improved over the past decade is that they actually know where you luggage is more often, it doesn't get lost as often, and when it doesn't arrive with you that they can predict when it will. (A few dozen domestic US flights are my data points, and three international, in the last ten years).
This isn't about lost luggage, nor did I ever say that it was.
Thanks for your response anyway. I don't think a suitcase will do what you say it will, since the new carry on restrictions in the US don't allow for something big enough to cause that problem.
Anyway, sorry about the diversion, the more interesting bits surrounding this incident concern the human/machine interface and CRM. They will hopefully be useful teaching tools in that type/model going forward.
Luggage goes in checked baggage for me.
I have found that with the new computerized tagging and such, one of the few things that has improved over the past decade is that they actually know where you luggage is more often, it doesn't get lost as often, and when it doesn't arrive with you that they can predict when it will. (A few dozen domestic US flights are my data points, and three international, in the last ten years).
This isn't about lost luggage, nor did I ever say that it was.
Thanks for your response anyway. I don't think a suitcase will do what you say it will, since the new carry on restrictions in the US don't allow for something big enough to cause that problem.
Anyway, sorry about the diversion, the more interesting bits surrounding this incident concern the human/machine interface and CRM. They will hopefully be useful teaching tools in that type/model going forward.
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Originally Posted by peekay4
FLEX has arming and engaging phases. When the thrust levers are moved to FLX/MCT, but the FLEX conditions are not met, then FLEX mode will fail to engage.
That means the engines will stay at MCT, which is not enough for takeoff.
That means the engines will stay at MCT, which is not enough for takeoff.
My idea (but I don't have more reference ...) is that if you don't insert any flex, you will get TOGA anyway in the FLX/MCT detent.
Hence the "retard, retard, retard" warning at 80 kts, which the pilots elected to ignore.
When anything greater than CL is set ,for example FLX/MCT ,thrust is directly proportional to thrust lever angle. I believe the caption "MAN" above FLX or TOGA is to remind crews of this state.
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Originally Posted by ironbutt57
Nope you won't getTOGA in the flex detent without a flex being enter...you will get the same message these folks got...
Depending on mod state later fadecs will automatically set Toga if Toga thrust is not set on a Toga take off. The Ntsb will know exactly what N1 or Epr was achieved on this take off from the FDR.
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BRE
Join Date: Mar 2007
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If this had been a Korean or French airline, the bashing would have covered 10 pages by now...
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 114
If this had been a Korean or French airline, the bashing would have covered 10 pages by now...
I am now an expat instructors at a national flag carrier in the Orient. What you wrote is very true, not so much because of ppruners not posting but many posts get culled.
Whilst instructing on OE flights nowadays, I find a lot of new expat trainees of the caliber of this said crew ! Alas, my airline is forever recruiting expats...we get loads of riff raffs and adventurers!
