Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost
Unixman,
Thanks, that is the first credible confirmation that RR does indeed have engine parameter data, and it also supports earlier speculation on this thread that such data feed is not continuous, but sent as packets after reaching certain phases of the flight. I would assume the last packet was sent as the engines throttled back on attaining cruise altitude.
Not realy... Kota Bharu with a 2400m runway right on the coast was about 90NM from their last reported position. Doing a 180 the city lights would have been clearly visible, and exactly in range for a straight-in continuous descent. In case of a complete electrical failure I'd like to see the thing on the ground at the closest suitable runway, and worry about anything else on the deck.
Thanks, that is the first credible confirmation that RR does indeed have engine parameter data, and it also supports earlier speculation on this thread that such data feed is not continuous, but sent as packets after reaching certain phases of the flight. I would assume the last packet was sent as the engines throttled back on attaining cruise altitude.
Originally Posted by "UnderDriven
I would imagine the your first thought would be to return to KL
Last edited by andrasz; 11th Mar 2014 at 20:14.
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Urrgh... for the last time.
By using this South African girl, Nine Network single-handedly smeared what maybe the last memory of the co-pilot's friends, family and reputation and will undoubtably land the Captain in some very hot water which could possibly receive a punishment far exceeding the crime because of the timing of a ridiculously portrayed event. Crying shame neither the girl or the network used their brains for one second and showed some restraint.
Company policy prohibits non-airline staff in the cockpit unless approved from the top. Then there's a bunch of rules over which airline staff are allowed to jump seat and when they cannot. It maybe argued there's Captain's discretion but only sooo far. He took a big risk doing what he did - pax might have reported him (smack on the wrist), LSS/crew might have reported him (get a warning), splashed all over National TV and the Web during a major crisis with admissions of smoking (probably sacked). Airline has to save face too, couldn't have come at a worse moment.
Company policy prohibits non-airline staff in the cockpit unless approved from the top. Then there's a bunch of rules over which airline staff are allowed to jump seat and when they cannot. It maybe argued there's Captain's discretion but only sooo far. He took a big risk doing what he did - pax might have reported him (smack on the wrist), LSS/crew might have reported him (get a warning), splashed all over National TV and the Web during a major crisis with admissions of smoking (probably sacked). Airline has to save face too, couldn't have come at a worse moment.
Last edited by Chill; 11th Mar 2014 at 20:17. Reason: Typo
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Even if the military radar DID pick up something unidentified moving west, what would they have been able to work out about it? Presumably there would need to have been some communication with civilian ATC to find out if an aircraft was known to be in the vicinity. Would Malaysian ATC have known at that point that the plane wasn't happily over Vietnam? Is there any established channel of communication between military and civilian structures (the muddled nature of Malaysia's response to this would suggest not)?
Is there any possibility that the low-flying aircraft seen off the east coast of the peninsula were actually fighters, scrambled to intercept an unidentified plane?
Is there any possibility that the low-flying aircraft seen off the east coast of the peninsula were actually fighters, scrambled to intercept an unidentified plane?
In addition to Yancey Slides post, what was the weather conditions from T/O to loss of signal? If I recall an earlier post the cloud coverage was nil over the area off the coast, was KL in the clear? After a 180 back toward the T/O point, if a loss of com/nav I would be looking for a big group of lights...not heading toward the narrowest portion of ML....
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You are tracking an outbound airliner from your own country. It does a turn back toward KL. Civil have not declared an emergency and the aircraft is not squawking emergency.
Why would you scramble an aircraft to shoot it down? You might perhaps scramble an aircraft to intercept - but you will have to justify the scramble if you get it wrong and perhaps it takes an hour or so to scramble an armed fighter. (9/11 showed that it took more than 30 minutes to get armed USAF aircraft airborne). It's only paranoid Europeans that have armed aircraft on QRA.
Why would you scramble an aircraft to shoot it down? You might perhaps scramble an aircraft to intercept - but you will have to justify the scramble if you get it wrong and perhaps it takes an hour or so to scramble an armed fighter. (9/11 showed that it took more than 30 minutes to get armed USAF aircraft airborne). It's only paranoid Europeans that have armed aircraft on QRA.
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Just seems like a turn back and loss of radio contact can only point to two things.
1) the aircraft was taken over by party's unknown.
2) massive electrical buss failure.
3 hole Falcons have a scenario that goes like this:
Buss 3 shorts out, pilot cross feeds bus 3 from 2. This takes buss 2 out, so he cross feeds 2 and 3 from 1. Now all 3 busses are dead.
It seems like there might be a failure mode that could take out both primary generators and the apu. At that point you would be down to "critical systems" like the FCS, pilots windshield heat, etc. that can be powered by the backup gen and emergency AC power.
Any 777 drivers know if a comm is part of the buss of last resort?
1) the aircraft was taken over by party's unknown.
2) massive electrical buss failure.
3 hole Falcons have a scenario that goes like this:
Buss 3 shorts out, pilot cross feeds bus 3 from 2. This takes buss 2 out, so he cross feeds 2 and 3 from 1. Now all 3 busses are dead.
It seems like there might be a failure mode that could take out both primary generators and the apu. At that point you would be down to "critical systems" like the FCS, pilots windshield heat, etc. that can be powered by the backup gen and emergency AC power.
Any 777 drivers know if a comm is part of the buss of last resort?
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If the A/C did commence a turn back and over flew the mainland as reported and hypoxia was a factor it could be half way to Africa with its 2.6knm endurance?. That is one massive search area and could take weeks or months to locate. The lack of hard evidence as to its last known location will prove to be a significant factor in when and if the A/C is found.
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Just seems like a turn back and loss of radio contact can only point to two things.
1) the aircraft was taken over by party's unknown.
2) massive electrical buss failure.
3 hole Falcons have a scenario that goes like this:
Buss 3 shorts out, pilot cross feeds bus 3 from 2. This takes buss 2 out, so he cross feeds 2 and 3 from 1. Now all 3 busses are dead.
It seems like there might be a failure mode that could take out both primary generators and the apu. At that point you would be down to "critical systems" like the FCS, pilots windshield heat, etc. that can be powered by the backup gen and emergency AC power.
Any 777 drivers know if a comm is part of the buss of last resort?
1) the aircraft was taken over by party's unknown.
2) massive electrical buss failure.
3 hole Falcons have a scenario that goes like this:
Buss 3 shorts out, pilot cross feeds bus 3 from 2. This takes buss 2 out, so he cross feeds 2 and 3 from 1. Now all 3 busses are dead.
It seems like there might be a failure mode that could take out both primary generators and the apu. At that point you would be down to "critical systems" like the FCS, pilots windshield heat, etc. that can be powered by the backup gen and emergency AC power.
Any 777 drivers know if a comm is part of the buss of last resort?
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MH370
Well what do you know - we now have admission from officials at last that they tracked MH370 to the Strait of Malacca!! So why has everyone been searching Between Malaysia & Vietnam? If you were one of those searchers you'd be feeling rather PO wouldn't you? I mean how long have they known this - surely it just didn't come to light as of now. Raises the questions now that there is much more yet to be told that is obviously being held back. So much for SAR co-operation in the future. Politics/borders etc - first casualty is always the truth which we may never know.
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What other flaws then?. It just seemed to me a coincidence that the aircraft turned left by a turn of the hdg knob by 90 degress and descended 10,000ft, again a full turn left of the Alt knob. If the flight deck door was not compromised then the flight deck initiated that action for what reason? If decompression was not an issue then why no comms. If suicide was the reason then why fly for another hour especially with the pax watching the in-flight map and not one person making a phone call.
we now have admission from officials at last that they tracked MH370 to the Strait of Malacca!!
doubtfire:
What other flaws then? It just seemed to me a coincidence that the aircraft turned left by a turn of the hdg knob by 90 degress and descended 10,000ft, again a full turn left of the Alt knob.
Could an unlucky un-contained engine disc failure explain this?
Looking at the damage to the main spar of the qantas a380, it seems possible that if a similar failure (trent 900) occurred through a smaller spar (assume 777 is smaller than a380) and the trajectory was unfortunate and it took out say the top half if the spar (you might recall the a380 went through middle) then total and unsurvivable structural failure of the wing is plausible, no?
Looking at the damage to the main spar of the qantas a380, it seems possible that if a similar failure (trent 900) occurred through a smaller spar (assume 777 is smaller than a380) and the trajectory was unfortunate and it took out say the top half if the spar (you might recall the a380 went through middle) then total and unsurvivable structural failure of the wing is plausible, no?
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Looking at the damage to the main spar of the qantas a380, it seems possible that if a similar failure (trent 900) occurred through a smaller spar (assume 777 is smaller than a380) and the trajectory was unfortunate and it took out say the top half if the spar (you might recall the a380 went through middle) then total and unsurvivable structural failure of the wing is plausible, no?
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Accepting that the aircraft turned from its intended course and commenced a descent from its assigned altitude would suggest deliberate crew action. The reasons for this may only be attributable either to unlawful intereference with flight or some technical malfunction(s). We are informed the former is most unlikely. This therefore must leave only the latter.
The nature of technical malfunction(s) must have involved a total loss of communications and in a short period of time thereafter escalated to limited control of the aircraft so as to prohibit further changes in course and altitude. The safe option under such circumstances would have been to keep clear of high terrain by remaining over water. At least dawn, by which time the crew may have become incapacitated leaving the aircraft to continue on its predermined course over the water, until its fuel was exhausted. Such actions would have taken the flight well beyond the areas within which SAR operations have commenced. No use looking in the wrong haystack for the needle.
The nature of technical malfunction(s) must have involved a total loss of communications and in a short period of time thereafter escalated to limited control of the aircraft so as to prohibit further changes in course and altitude. The safe option under such circumstances would have been to keep clear of high terrain by remaining over water. At least dawn, by which time the crew may have become incapacitated leaving the aircraft to continue on its predermined course over the water, until its fuel was exhausted. Such actions would have taken the flight well beyond the areas within which SAR operations have commenced. No use looking in the wrong haystack for the needle.
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Can you land in the dark?
Andrasz
WMKC (KBR) might be just long enough to crash in but the PCN wouldn't accomodate a 777 assuming that you could land it on an unlit strip in the dark - the airport is closed after midnight (actually earlier) so no ATC, no aids except for the VOR and an aerodrome surrounded by kampung. Nice black hole approach...
WMKN (TGG) on the other hand is longer, supports a B747, is perpendicular to the coastline (KBR is inland), but also closed at this time and in the dark.
V1
That's the new Rescue406 (has a different cap on the bottom - I've not seen one for real). The previous model in your Canadian pic and indeed on some MAS aircraft has water soluble tape holding the antenna down so in water it should release. There needs to be some electrolyte in the water - pure water will not trigger a cell reaction, neither will alcohol and the operating instructions warn against this - for this reason for land ops there is a plastic bag strapped to the ELT with salt in it so you just have to add clean water... or pi$$ in it)... but we're getting off topic.
WMKC (KBR) might be just long enough to crash in but the PCN wouldn't accomodate a 777 assuming that you could land it on an unlit strip in the dark - the airport is closed after midnight (actually earlier) so no ATC, no aids except for the VOR and an aerodrome surrounded by kampung. Nice black hole approach...
WMKN (TGG) on the other hand is longer, supports a B747, is perpendicular to the coastline (KBR is inland), but also closed at this time and in the dark.
V1
That's the new Rescue406 (has a different cap on the bottom - I've not seen one for real). The previous model in your Canadian pic and indeed on some MAS aircraft has water soluble tape holding the antenna down so in water it should release. There needs to be some electrolyte in the water - pure water will not trigger a cell reaction, neither will alcohol and the operating instructions warn against this - for this reason for land ops there is a plastic bag strapped to the ELT with salt in it so you just have to add clean water... or pi$$ in it)... but we're getting off topic.
Last edited by Chill; 11th Mar 2014 at 20:45. Reason: Added response.
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MH370
Appear Reuters News has the headline but the main page content has now been removed!! Australian papers running it. Says MH370 was tracked to Strait of Malacca where it was low level and then signal disappeared. We're being fed morsels.
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Having read here and heard from additional sources about how it is impossible to stream continuous data, even a limited amount, is prohibitive due to bandwidth limitations, raises questions in my mind. Many of the planes here in USA have the satellite bulge for passengers using in-flight WiFi. Knowing the bandwidth I can use through my satellite Internet provider when I am streaming movies or uploading pictures how can it be that coded compressed coordinates transmitted lets say every 10 seconds, or even every minute, can use so much more? My upload speed to HugesNet right now is 12 Mbps. We know the aircraft can transmit anomaly information as the aircraft is in flight - but so can all of the earthmoving equipment the company for which I work. Granted we only set machines to transmit 4 times daily unless an anomaly occurs but we are talking machinery that doesn't move that fast. So if lets say 100 passengers aboard are using their iPad all at the same time without problem how can transmitting must relevant position, altitude, velocity information absorb so much bandwidth?
When the Ethiopian 787 had its fire at Heathrow and the cause was determined to be the ELT, did they not issue an order to disconnect the device on all 787's because in the present day this information was not considered important on large commercial aircraft? Did the directive go out on other aircraft fitted with the same Honeywell ELT? I may have missed comments regarding this although I think I have gone through every comment on this thread multiple times.
When the Ethiopian 787 had its fire at Heathrow and the cause was determined to be the ELT, did they not issue an order to disconnect the device on all 787's because in the present day this information was not considered important on large commercial aircraft? Did the directive go out on other aircraft fitted with the same Honeywell ELT? I may have missed comments regarding this although I think I have gone through every comment on this thread multiple times.