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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

Old 29th Jan 2015, 09:38
  #11621 (permalink)  
 
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BBC:
Officials said that the recovery operation is ongoing but that the 239 people onboard are now presumed dead.
BBC News - Malaysia declares MH370 an accident
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Old 29th Jan 2015, 09:40
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The link stating search "0fficially ended" above actually says the search is ongoing.

Edit: Link now removed

Last edited by BillS; 29th Jan 2015 at 09:42. Reason: Post changed
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Old 29th Jan 2015, 09:42
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Search

I was watching it live on News 24 in OZ.

The search is ongoing and they believe they are still in the correct area, they only officially announced it as an accident so next of kin can claim compensation.
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Old 30th Jan 2015, 11:56
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Yes they are so concerned of the next of kin that's why the families were never approached before the announcement to the rest of the world.
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Old 30th Jan 2015, 17:33
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How do they normally approach the next of kin without telling the whole world? Do they send out emails or make lots of phone calls?
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Old 6th Feb 2015, 06:20
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Possible work through the Embassy/Foriegn Affairs departments of the victims countries , wait two weeks and announce. It would never be perfect but the effort could be made.
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Old 11th Feb 2015, 13:55
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Flight Tracker from Aireon.

From AvWeb:
Beginning in 2017 any aircraft, GA included, with ADS-B out transmitting at 1090 MHz will be automatically tracked and the precise location of its last transmission anywhere on earth recorded. At last week's ICAO High Level Safety Conference, Aireon LLC, which is launching the first space based global air surveillance system, announced that the headquarters for its Aircraft Locating and Emergency Response Tracking (Aireon Alert) will be at the Irish Aviation Authority's North Atlantic operations center in Ballygirreen on the west coast of Ireland. Once the Iridium constellation of satellites carrying the ADS-B receivers is complete, any airline, search and rescue organization or any other group needing "last known" information on a flight can get it for free from Aireon. VP of marketing Cyriel Kronenburg told AVweb it will work for all aircraft equipped with 1090 MHz ADS-B and the mystery of Malaysian MH370, a Boeing 777 which hasn't been found since it disappeared a year ago, prompted the ALERT service.
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Old 11th Feb 2015, 15:16
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Isn't ADS-B out linked to transponder operation? MH370s transponder was not transmitting from the earliest stage of its loss. So this new service would have been of no use even if it had been operational.
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Old 11th Feb 2015, 15:23
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Andrew, the point you raise became evident early in this investigation of this lost hull. What is interesting is how the various "solution" presenters seem to have overlooked that point.
Not enough people seem to have watched the Monty Python "I'm Trying Not to be Seen" sketch.
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Old 11th Feb 2015, 15:34
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Originally Posted by Niner Lima Charlie
From AvWeb:
Beginning in 2017 any aircraft, GA included, with ADS-B out transmitting at 1090 MHz will be automatically tracked and the precise location of its last transmission anywhere on earth recorded. At last week's ICAO High Level Safety Conference, Aireon LLC, which is launching the first space based global air surveillance system, announced that the headquarters for its Aircraft Locating and Emergency Response Tracking (Aireon Alert) will be at the Irish Aviation Authority's North Atlantic operations center in Ballygirreen on the west coast of Ireland. Once the Iridium constellation of satellites carrying the ADS-B receivers is complete, any airline, search and rescue organization or any other group needing "last known" information on a flight can get it for free from Aireon. VP of marketing Cyriel Kronenburg told AVweb it will work for all aircraft equipped with 1090 MHz ADS-B and the mystery of Malaysian MH370, a Boeing 777 which hasn't been found since it disappeared a year ago, prompted the ALERT service.
Except that the ADS-B transmitters were switched off by whoever was in the cockpit of MH370. There were arguments about switched off/failed but the net result was they stopped Mode-S and secondary radar transponders at around the same time.

So under the Aireon/Iridium scheme everyone would now start searching the South China Sea again.

The argument about making it impossible to switch off ADS-B has also been rehearsed numerous times.

The Aireon idea is a solution to a different problem. It might have helped with AFR447. But that would also be solved by Aireon's competitor INMARSAT providing free tracking for ADS-C equipped aircraft.

The problem of what to do when someone in the cockpit (crew or savvy hijacker) decides to close down all on board active tracking systems has yet to be solved.
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Old 11th Feb 2015, 20:51
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A simple autonomous device, located in tail, transmitting position from a integrated GPS through Inmarsat each minute... Seems simple enough.
Fitted with internal batteries which could be charged only on ground from AC system, no link to flight deck required.
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Old 12th Feb 2015, 06:11
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I guess you mean something similar to the device involved here:

Ethiopian Airlines 787 Dreamliner fire caused by emergency locator battery | WJLA.com
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Old 12th Feb 2015, 12:56
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Originally Posted by Skyjob
A simple autonomous device, located in tail, transmitting position from a integrated GPS through Inmarsat each minute... Seems simple enough.
Fitted with internal batteries which could be charged only on ground from AC system, no link to flight deck required.
It would seem simple enought to get around by using a £100 'truck driver' GPS jammer placed near the device. This would prevent the device from knowing where it is. And as such, a Geostationary satellite wouldn't be able to locate the device. The LEO satellites that do a Doppler fix seem to rely on the target being motionless so it is just the satellite to surface motion that is considered. In addition, there are significant coverage gaps (up to 2 hours).

Some basic improvements would help for tracking aircraft oceanic aircraft. However, my understanding is that the wrecks of both AF447 and QZ8501 were located within a couple of miles of the last electronic datapoint. So for accidents, we are talking about a technology that might shrink the search area a small amount and might speed up the investigation, but not fundamentally change anything.

For someone who wants to disappear and can fly the aircraft, I think all of the ideas proposed so far are either unsafe (high power complex equipment with no off switch) or relatively easy to defeat.
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Old 12th Feb 2015, 13:20
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Yeah, electronic devices that can't be turned off are a great idea ....

.
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Old 12th Feb 2015, 14:01
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Originally Posted by Skyjob View Post
A simple autonomous device, located in tail, transmitting position from a integrated GPS through Inmarsat each minute... Seems simple enough.
Fitted with internal batteries which could be charged only on ground from AC system, no link to flight deck required.
It would seem simple enought to get around by using a £100 'truck driver' GPS jammer placed near the device. This would prevent the device from knowing where it is. And as such, a Geostationary satellite wouldn't be able to locate the device. The LEO satellites that do a Doppler fix seem to rely on the target being motionless so it is just the satellite to surface motion that is considered. In addition, there are significant coverage gaps (up to 2 hours).

Some basic improvements would help for tracking aircraft oceanic aircraft. However, my understanding is that the wrecks of both AF447 and QZ8501 were located within a couple of miles of the last electronic datapoint. So for accidents, we are talking about a technology that might shrink the search area a small amount and might speed up the investigation, but not fundamentally change anything.

For someone who wants to disappear and can fly the aircraft, I think all of the ideas proposed so far are either unsafe (high power complex equipment with no off switch) or relatively easy to defeat.
Well put. Hopefully enough to avoid going round the "how hard can it be?" cycle for the umpteenth time on this thread.

This remains a bizarrely unique event and re-equipping the entire aviation fleet on the strength of it is unwarranted.
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Old 12th Feb 2015, 15:16
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Originally Posted by Dont Hang Up
Well put. Hopefully enough to avoid going round the "how hard can it be?" cycle for the umpteenth time on this thread.

This remains a bizarrely unique event and re-equipping the entire aviation fleet on the strength of it is unwarranted.
At the same time, it would be really good to have ELT's that worked. They have almost a zero success rate.
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Old 13th Feb 2015, 17:32
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The 'landing' in the Hudson was a ditching with significant g as the engines went into the water.

The reasons for the ELT's failing - broken antenna, going underwater etc are well known. So now get a couple of engineering undergraduates to design them so that they work! It is not difficult but it appears that the manufacturers are perfectly content to deliver equipment that demonstrably fails EVERY time it is needed.

Note that if the ELTs worked on MH370, it would have been found within 7 hours of going missing. How much has been spent searching for that aircraft again? Probably enough to design,manufacture, purchase and fit a nice shiny new functionalELT for every widebody flying.

Instead off go the avionics engineers fresh from their total failure to create a functional ELT, trying to sell ever more sophisticated tracking devices that will also fail, but bring in far more income.

A question that operators should ask the avionics industry is: "If you cannot create a working ELT an extremely simple device, why should we trust you to create a sophisticated tracking device?"
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Old 14th Feb 2015, 05:40
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Why don't you read about what ICAO are actually doing...

406-MHZ ELT Specification Development - ICAO
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Old 25th Feb 2015, 21:36
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ATSB update to the Senate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7Mw...ature=youtu.be

Some interesting facts I was not aware of.
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Old 25th Feb 2015, 22:35
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In the previously linked video, classification of sonar targets is described into 3 levels, with level 1 warranting "immediate investigation", level 2 being a "man made object" and level 3 being of "some" interest

In the event of not finding any level 1 returns will the relatively few in number (8) level 2 returns be investigated?

Also, Peter Foley says there are well over 100 class 3 targets, not 200 as quoted earlier.

Last edited by mickjoebill; 2nd Mar 2015 at 02:26.
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