Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost
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@geneman
Based on the images linked from post 6512 (permalink?) they are sourced from Digital Globe. Coordinates and time are also available in the margins, which have been cropped out in many media articles.
According to the story from post 6636 (permalink?), the suspected debris has been corroborated by more than one satellite. I suspect the released photos were intentionally sourced from civilian data.
Given the sensitivity of surveillance techniques, we do not know the origin of the data or if other images are available, in the visual spectrum or via radar.
What someone COULD perhaps release is whether these objects have been detected by more than one satellite or during more than one pass of a satellite over this area.
Last edited by aa5bpilot; 20th Mar 2014 at 18:42. Reason: Updated links - permalinks don't appear to be perma...
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on the "more satellite images likely" / "satellite images should be very detailed ... look at Google's images!" thing, I just want to throw this out
Remember, Google has plenty of time to take as many detailed shots as they like. They can zoom in the focus to get the best possible image - they know what they are going for, and know it aint gonna be moving anytime soon
This isnt quite the case here though. They are searching Thousands of miles, in a quick time period, on a moving surface
These images were from 4 days ago already. They are likely a portion of multiple snaps as the entire region was being quick scanned at a resolution high enough to spot something, low enough to allow for the entire area to be hit with said images to be gone over. They likely made a few passes, but I doubt there was a ton of them. There likely isn't a more zoomed in snap of this as they didn't know for a couple days to even zoom in a shot right there; there was that much area being searched.
At this point (and really, since they started narrowing down the search to smaller and smaller areas) they have probably been taking higher resolution zoomed in snaps. But this is 4 days later, that debris possibly isn't even there anymore so who knows if they have even been able to find it once again on another satellite image.
Not saying they don't have more images, they very well could. And not saying this is exactly the resolution - I imagine they may have blurred it little. But I doubt there are images anywhere near the resolution we would see of say, the released images of suspicious whatever peaking out of the sand in Afghanistan cira-2002, let alone anything close to the Google like "omg, I can see the gnome on my lawn!" type snaps.
IMO, at least
Remember, Google has plenty of time to take as many detailed shots as they like. They can zoom in the focus to get the best possible image - they know what they are going for, and know it aint gonna be moving anytime soon
This isnt quite the case here though. They are searching Thousands of miles, in a quick time period, on a moving surface
These images were from 4 days ago already. They are likely a portion of multiple snaps as the entire region was being quick scanned at a resolution high enough to spot something, low enough to allow for the entire area to be hit with said images to be gone over. They likely made a few passes, but I doubt there was a ton of them. There likely isn't a more zoomed in snap of this as they didn't know for a couple days to even zoom in a shot right there; there was that much area being searched.
At this point (and really, since they started narrowing down the search to smaller and smaller areas) they have probably been taking higher resolution zoomed in snaps. But this is 4 days later, that debris possibly isn't even there anymore so who knows if they have even been able to find it once again on another satellite image.
Not saying they don't have more images, they very well could. And not saying this is exactly the resolution - I imagine they may have blurred it little. But I doubt there are images anywhere near the resolution we would see of say, the released images of suspicious whatever peaking out of the sand in Afghanistan cira-2002, let alone anything close to the Google like "omg, I can see the gnome on my lawn!" type snaps.
IMO, at least
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RetiredF4
Please lets not start a whole new cascade of misunderstanding based on casual reading of PPMAGENTO's map. The arcs other than the red one at 8.11 are GUESSES. No such arc information has been released
Seriously, unless I have missed something, only ONE ping has ever been released, though the existence of more (5?) unreleased ones has been hinted but not confirmed. And we might assume that those involved have used them to "fit the dots" and refine their predictions. (e.g. the Aussie search area ?). But we can't be sure, I think, and we don't have them ourselves. So not released or leaked. Not the ping angles.
And big question: why is there no arc for the time 3:11? Aircraft unpowered or position arc identical with the 2:11 or 4:11 arc?
Seriously, unless I have missed something, only ONE ping has ever been released, though the existence of more (5?) unreleased ones has been hinted but not confirmed. And we might assume that those involved have used them to "fit the dots" and refine their predictions. (e.g. the Aussie search area ?). But we can't be sure, I think, and we don't have them ourselves. So not released or leaked. Not the ping angles.
Last edited by fg32; 20th Mar 2014 at 16:26. Reason: Removal of incorrect reference to another post
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Sorry if this gets deleted as innapropriate im not sorry for saying it, 2 hours for CVR is an utter disgrace. In this day and age for compression and audio storage could easily be hundreds of hours to SSD. I hope if anything from this terrible loss of souls there is an extensive review of how voice/ data is recorded and tracked if lost due to tragedy or otherwise.
AF447 proved a 30day ping is massively inadequate, pitch SAR time against the extra cost of carrying a 21 century black box..
AF447 proved a 30day ping is massively inadequate, pitch SAR time against the extra cost of carrying a 21 century black box..
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MagnusP
I don't really think so.
This is media garbage.
These images are not from a sensitive US source (implied "governmental") whose identity needs protecting. They are from a commercial organisation that proudly plasters its copyright notice in the corner of each. The very organisation that proudly claims it immediately manoeuvred its satellites to get the original South China Sea images that appeared so promptly on their own crowd-sourced photo search engine Tomnod.
US satellite the unspoken source that sparked search
This may inform the debate.
This may inform the debate.
This is media garbage.
These images are not from a sensitive US source (implied "governmental") whose identity needs protecting. They are from a commercial organisation that proudly plasters its copyright notice in the corner of each. The very organisation that proudly claims it immediately manoeuvred its satellites to get the original South China Sea images that appeared so promptly on their own crowd-sourced photo search engine Tomnod.
Last edited by fg32; 20th Mar 2014 at 16:18. Reason: added "their own" for clarity
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The published images have a Digital Globe stamp, and appear to match Digital Globe satellite performance, so there's no reason to suspect those images came from a more expensive Three Letter Agency's resources.
Hopefully much more did, on which the Australians' seemingly confident despatch of ships and aircraft was based. The best indication of where it was at would be if a radar satellite pass had caught it in flight. Then the speed, direction and link to the red arc would be assured, if not publicly known.
Hopefully much more did, on which the Australians' seemingly confident despatch of ships and aircraft was based. The best indication of where it was at would be if a radar satellite pass had caught it in flight. Then the speed, direction and link to the red arc would be assured, if not publicly known.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Or was the aircraft excursion on Plan A, skirting Indonesia and Thai airspace and then something else happened that resulted in a turn on to south?
Postulating: the aircraft was under control for the first part of the excursion by, let us suppose, a hijacker. Then, while heading NW, something happened to disable the hijacker and this resulted in the turn south. At this point there was no competent pilot available to control the flight.
Postulating: the aircraft was under control for the first part of the excursion by, let us suppose, a hijacker. Then, while heading NW, something happened to disable the hijacker and this resulted in the turn south. At this point there was no competent pilot available to control the flight.
Sat res.
@'DS';- you talked about satellite resolution with regard to Google. Sure, the high-level stuff is from satellites. However, all the detailed, zoomable stuff is from normal, coventional aerial-photography. If Google satellites were THAT good, the military wouldn't need their own assets...!
Other satellites
It's quite possible that the USA's NRO has obtained some high-res images of these "objects of interest", either before or after the civilian images were obtained. And then shared the results of the analysis, if not the actual images, with the civilians. Hence a great deal of activity over some fairly blurry "things". One of which just looks too big, to my uneducated eyes.
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I think we can put the FL450 to bed can't we?
The FL450 claim was related to PSR and therefore not very accurate.
I haven't seen a source for the claim.
However a 777 pilot did test it out in the sim and got pretty close http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post8387369
However he had the wrong engines and if the post a couple of pages back is to be believed he was a tad too heavy.
Could it have got to FL450? Most probably yes. Did it? We don't know and it's not important.
If the purpose was to incapacitate the passengers then an hour at 35000ft cabin alt would do the job too.
The FL450 claim was related to PSR and therefore not very accurate.
I haven't seen a source for the claim.
However a 777 pilot did test it out in the sim and got pretty close http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post8387369
However he had the wrong engines and if the post a couple of pages back is to be believed he was a tad too heavy.
Could it have got to FL450? Most probably yes. Did it? We don't know and it's not important.
If the purpose was to incapacitate the passengers then an hour at 35000ft cabin alt would do the job too.
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D.S.
On more careful reading of your post, is see you were indeed using the word "ping" in a different sense. I should have concentrated harder on the context. Apologies. I shall take the liberty of editing my post to remove reference to yours.
On more careful reading of your post, is see you were indeed using the word "ping" in a different sense. I should have concentrated harder on the context. Apologies. I shall take the liberty of editing my post to remove reference to yours.
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Weather
GQ2
The first inhabited land not too far from the believed spot is the French island Ile Amsterdam, aka Nouvelle Amsterdam. There is a permanent scientists base here of about 20/35 researchers. The French Wiki proposes a concise description of this island including a weather summary.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam_(île)
The air temperature is never low especially in this season but it rains a lot and all the year here. January, February and March are the warmer months.
That image could almost be a section of fuz and wing-roots...with chutes/rafts deployed. It begs the question; What are the sea temps, wind-chill there..? Any maritime survival experts here like to offer chances for survivors..?
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam_(île)
The air temperature is never low especially in this season but it rains a lot and all the year here. January, February and March are the warmer months.
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The same information source that gave us a descent of 45k fpm (the descent rate of a meteorite, as one ppruner pointed out) also gave us the climb to fl450. Apparently that source was hung up on 45. If one number is clearly wrong, the others are obviously suspect as well.
CNN had a reporter and a t7 pilot in a t7 sim the day after the suspect claim was made, and among otherthings the pilot demonstrated was a zoom climb to fl450. Im sure the pilot was smart enuff to program approximate numbers into the sim. He made it up there, but there was no safe speed indication on the speed tape. The yellow and red were completly merged and the guy was barely able to hang on to it. And why go there in the first place.
one ppruner makes the point that having Diego Garcia in the sim program indicated to him something nefarious on the part of the pilot. The ppruner thought having it in the program was a clear indication of bad intent. Which goes to show that "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."Imo.
apparently some ppruners missed the admission by the Malaysian gubment that their radar picked up MH 370 going across their sky after the diversion but failed to do anything about it.
CNN had a reporter and a t7 pilot in a t7 sim the day after the suspect claim was made, and among otherthings the pilot demonstrated was a zoom climb to fl450. Im sure the pilot was smart enuff to program approximate numbers into the sim. He made it up there, but there was no safe speed indication on the speed tape. The yellow and red were completly merged and the guy was barely able to hang on to it. And why go there in the first place.
one ppruner makes the point that having Diego Garcia in the sim program indicated to him something nefarious on the part of the pilot. The ppruner thought having it in the program was a clear indication of bad intent. Which goes to show that "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."Imo.
apparently some ppruners missed the admission by the Malaysian gubment that their radar picked up MH 370 going across their sky after the diversion but failed to do anything about it.
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Philipat: I would think Indonesia would have taken notice of a plane sans ident heading 263 out of Malaysian airspace and over the Malacca Strait, No? The Indonesian Defense Minister said Indonesia military radar did not pick up any signs of MH370. (Of course he did not say they did not pick up any signs of any aircraft that morning one of which might possibly have been MH370)
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RetiredF4
Please lets not start a whole new cascade of misunderstanding based on casual reading of PPMAGENTO's map. The arcs other than the red one at 8.11 are GUESSES. No such arc information has been released
Seriously, unless I have missed something, only ONE ping has ever been released, though the existence of more (5?) unreleased ones has been hinted but not confirmed. And we might assume that those involved have used them to "fit the dots" and refine their predictions. (e.g. the Aussie search area ?). But we can't be sure, I think, and we don't have them ourselves. So not released or leaked. Not the ping angles.
Please lets not start a whole new cascade of misunderstanding based on casual reading of PPMAGENTO's map. The arcs other than the red one at 8.11 are GUESSES. No such arc information has been released
Seriously, unless I have missed something, only ONE ping has ever been released, though the existence of more (5?) unreleased ones has been hinted but not confirmed. And we might assume that those involved have used them to "fit the dots" and refine their predictions. (e.g. the Aussie search area ?). But we can't be sure, I think, and we don't have them ourselves. So not released or leaked. Not the ping angles.
However the AMSA guy stated there were 6 more pings which have been analysed
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I fully agree. With terabyte SSDs consumer items there is no excuse for being this parsimonious. I would think the only excuse is that by comparison to previous recording systems the current CVR/DFDR are an improvement. However, even carrying the recordings is now becoming obsolete with recording to 'the cloud' being perfectly feasible. And had that been the case with MH370 this thread would have been considerably shorter and a lot of anguish would have been spared.
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Even if intact, the wing tanks have vents, and I would expect them to be filled with water after this length of time.
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oldoberon
Yes. On the probabilities I think they exist, and have been used. Available to some, but not to us.
And they are NOT as marked on PPMAGENTO's map. Those are guesses.
Just trying to stop disinformation spreading. It propagates like a d**n virus once started.
However the AMSA guy stated there were 6 more pings which have been analysed
And they are NOT as marked on PPMAGENTO's map. Those are guesses.
Just trying to stop disinformation spreading. It propagates like a d**n virus once started.
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Some semi-off-topic observation, sorry....
Reading again and again about those "inmarsat pings" I feel myself back in 70's and not in the second decade of the XXI century.
Military world (aviation, first of all) has Link-16 in place for more than 20 years allowing a crowd of various entities (airborne, maritime, ground platforms) to operate collectively in the same information environment, in real time, all over the world.
More recent frameworks like LVC allow real pilots operating real airplanes train collectively with their colleagues operating sims at the AF bases on the ground. When first such experiments started some 5-6 years ago I once asked a guy about his feelings expecting him saying "well, you know, it's just a trick and fun". But he was serious and the only complaint was about no wingman seen when he was turning his head in the cockpit when in the air. The stuff from the same very Boeing, by the way.
Moreover, modern technologies allow a regular dismounted infantry soldier to stay online in real-time, even he/she is in the middle of nowhere. Satellite networks such as MUOS secure a 64+ Kbps connection, which is enough not to only send telemetry, but interact with team members.
Some "other civil worlds", like e.g. car makers start using IoT (internet of things) techniques to let cars talk to each other and service centers.
With all that mentioned, it looks outrageous that aircraft carrying hundreds of passengers just sends trivial pings every hour, and these ping data are even not easy to find and analyze. Add 1 buck to the ticket price and with 1 Bln passenger per year you can build and deploy, in a few years, a MUOS-like network specially serving civil aviation. And enjoy a hell of data in real-time, in a shared global data space, including not only flight variables but heartbeat rate, blood pressure etc. of every crew member. Of course everything is encrypted and could be decrypted only by those concerned.
Reading again and again about those "inmarsat pings" I feel myself back in 70's and not in the second decade of the XXI century.
Military world (aviation, first of all) has Link-16 in place for more than 20 years allowing a crowd of various entities (airborne, maritime, ground platforms) to operate collectively in the same information environment, in real time, all over the world.
More recent frameworks like LVC allow real pilots operating real airplanes train collectively with their colleagues operating sims at the AF bases on the ground. When first such experiments started some 5-6 years ago I once asked a guy about his feelings expecting him saying "well, you know, it's just a trick and fun". But he was serious and the only complaint was about no wingman seen when he was turning his head in the cockpit when in the air. The stuff from the same very Boeing, by the way.
Moreover, modern technologies allow a regular dismounted infantry soldier to stay online in real-time, even he/she is in the middle of nowhere. Satellite networks such as MUOS secure a 64+ Kbps connection, which is enough not to only send telemetry, but interact with team members.
Some "other civil worlds", like e.g. car makers start using IoT (internet of things) techniques to let cars talk to each other and service centers.
With all that mentioned, it looks outrageous that aircraft carrying hundreds of passengers just sends trivial pings every hour, and these ping data are even not easy to find and analyze. Add 1 buck to the ticket price and with 1 Bln passenger per year you can build and deploy, in a few years, a MUOS-like network specially serving civil aviation. And enjoy a hell of data in real-time, in a shared global data space, including not only flight variables but heartbeat rate, blood pressure etc. of every crew member. Of course everything is encrypted and could be decrypted only by those concerned.