PPRuNe Forums


Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 15th Mar 2014, 15:15   #3961 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kent
Age: 59
Posts: 215
Ages back in the thread, someone posted about the vulnerability of the electronics bay, accessible through the floor outside the cockpit. Does anyone know what can be done from there, ie can the transponder /ACARS be disabled?

And -while we're brainstorming - how big is that bay? Is it big enough for someone to hide in - say, before take-off?
overthewing is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 15:15   #3962 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Looking for greener grass...
Posts: 26
Final words

I have seen two sets of "final words" from the flight. From one source:

- “All right, roger that” a pilot replied to a radio message from Malaysian air control.
- One of the pilots also replied, “All right, good night.”

It has been a few years since I was operational in ATC but I would have expected a read back of the frequency they were being transferred to.

ATC, MH370 contact (xxx control ) on (frequency) goodnight
Pilot, Roger (xxx) on (frequency) goodnight

("Roger that" seems to come from American TV, I'm continuously trying to stop trainees using it.)

Strange to get two pilots responding, both appearing to be non standard.
sheepless is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 15:19   #3963 (permalink)
GQ2
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 146
...if it was the pilots replying....
GQ2 is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 15:20   #3964 (permalink)
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 481
Though just about everyone does it, read back of a frequency is not required.
BenThere is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 15:22   #3965 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The foot of Mt. Belzoni.
Posts: 1,800
Ben There,
it certainly is in the U.K.
ZOOKER is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 15:28   #3966 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 73
Posts: 8,087
“All right, roger that”

I never heard such a phrase. Where did he get "All right" from? Bizarre.
HEATHROW DIRECTOR is online now  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 15:29   #3967 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by AN2 Driver View Post
What this boils down to is that if the flight crew are involved in this, which I refuse to believe until I see unrefutable proof,
In the past 15 years, there have been 3 deadly crashes caused by flight crew suicide. This is about 30% of all deadly accidents happening during cruise flight (not counting 9/11).

Nothing has been done to prevent similar flight crew actions in the future; hardened cockpit doors made it even easier.

So without prejudice towards this specific flight crew, deliberate flight crew actions cannot be dismissed as a possible cause based on past experience.
cockpitvisit is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 15:30   #3968 (permalink)


Probationary PPRuNer
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: NY
Posts: 1
777 avionics were reported by the US Govt Federal Register as accessable to a hacker. I'm not going to post the link or any details, because I don't want to help anybody looking for a way in. Supposedly the issue has been fixed, and seems beyond the capability of garden variety hijackers but its something to be wary of.
DaKra is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 15:33   #3969 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Singapore
Posts: 6
HeathrowAirport

Its obvious you have never operated into China... quite common to have an extra couple of hours fuel for the unexpected behavior of Chinese ATC
globalexpress62 is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 15:37   #3970 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: under the glideslope
Age: 41
Posts: 12
Quote:
("Roger that" seems to come from American TV, I'm continuously trying to stop trainees using it.)

Strange to get two pilots responding, both appearing to be non standard.
I would not judge by phraseo. It si more than normal that on home ATC frequency you are more than relaxed, and you will not repeat frequency you repeated probably hundred times before. You can check on liveATC.net how pilots on home country frequencies almost never do readback correctly, when handed over to new control. Even if this is was handover to Vietnam control, I would not see this strange or suspicious.

And I would say, that if you know how to disable ACARS, you would probably know these ~50 ICAO phrases well enough. As you can get them freely, unlike of T7 detailed system descriptions.
litinoveweedle is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 15:48   #3971 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: somehere sandy!
Posts: 219
The FUB et el...

Many posts will be being deleted because they are plain stupid, or because the subject is security sensitive.

As someone who is well involved on this industry, I am already extremely nervous at the amount of detailed system/procedural information already discussed here. It just doesn't help future airline security...

I am just as keen as anyone else to see this queer mystery unravelled, but I am not about to share my professional knowledge. Others need to think before posting.
goeasy is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 15:51   #3972 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 3,744
Quote:
Frankly, todays press conference has shook me to the core of my own inner beliefs in whom to trust and whom not. I still am in denial that any crew could do something like that, so in a way I hope there will be ANY other explanation than that one. We can fix planes, we can increase security but to repair trust is something which is as unlikely as the whole mess we find ourselfs in right now.
And when was the last time an airline pilot hijacked their own aircraft?

Answer, about a month ago:

Co-pilot hijacks Ethiopian Airlines, flies to Geneva for asylum - CNN.com

Tankering fuel to China is not unusual at my outfit. I would imagine fuel is somewhat subsidized at KUL for local carriers.

If that plane indeed zigzagged NORDO eastward staying on the airways to avoid military scrutiny, as others have observed, it probably wasn't the work of an amateur.
Airbubba is online now  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 15:52   #3973 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vendee
Posts: 134
Quote:
As someone who is well involved on this industry, I am already extremely nervous at the amount of detailed system/procedural information already discussed here. It just doesn't help future airline security...
Excellent point Goeasy. The procedures we use have been developed over the years to ensure security and now I am watching them openly discussed and displayed for all the world to see. Not saying that it ever could be prevented, but if we are not security conscious 100% of the time then we are not doing our job properly.
Uncle Fred is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 15:54   #3974 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: N/A
Age: 58
Posts: 14
Its obvious you have never operated into China... quite common to have an extra couple of hours fuel for the unexpected behavior of Chinese ATC


I agree
G-ARVH is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 16:01   #3975 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Finland
Posts: 283
Security through obscurity is never a good thing, it just gives a false, warm sense of security. If a bad guy is going to do something and he is an insider guess what, he or she would know what buttons to press. It might stop Mike the Plumber rushing the flight deck and using his bottle of vodka as a battering ram, but if Nigel the co pilot is going to do bad stuff, he is going to do it regardless.
luoto is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 16:02   #3976 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: KMRY
Posts: 2
hacking the 777

Indeed it is possible. I wrote a book about just such an event, back before the first a/c was delivered. The book was entitled The Last High Ground, and while the story bears absolutely no resemblance to what we're seeing now (uncommanded throttle-ups and t/r deployments were the plot point), the code inserted into the a/c systems was considered accurate and threatening enough by Boeing for them to ask the publisher to delete it. Which we did.
Robin White
N5329K is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 16:04   #3977 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kent
Age: 59
Posts: 215
If something that pops up on PPRuNe is enough to give an 'amateur' troublemaker the means to take over a plane, then it seems to me it's a vulnerable area that should be identified and dealt with. Airing it is only responsible - especially if the issue has been ignored by those in authority.

Anyone taking a professional approach to the task of hijacking is likely to have access to other resources, such as data from actual pilots and ATC staff, wouldn't you think? I don't think they're going to be scouring PPRuNe for handy hints.
overthewing is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 16:05   #3978 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 6,012
I can also remember some report of an Airline Captain on his last flight before retirement loosing the plot and barrel rolling an Airline full of PAX.

You cannot discount crew loosing the plot and committing suicide deciding to take the whole ship with them.
Respected Family Men have lost the plot and wiped out their whole family wife and kids.

If its one nutcase Pax then if the crew are lax on securing the Cockpit while using the WC etc then it is feasible that a Pax pushed in locked the door killed the crew and did his wicked deeds.

As stated I cannot see organised terrorism behind this because of a lack of claims for the Evil deed.
Organised terrorism need the publicity and coverage to promote their cause and to date there have been no serious claims to carrying out such an act.

I still bar the crew or errant Pax lean towards a massive decompression with emergency descent minus the A/P

Pace
Pace is online now  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 16:07   #3979 (permalink)
DWS
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: redmond
Age: 82
Posts: 61
Grrr FWIW re last ping and shutoff of ACARS

The following is MY compilation of WSJ-FOX- and Malay Prime Minister of what ** seem* to be reasonably factual along with reading the last 20 pages of posts.

1) Flight path- zig zag along boundaries of radar coverage were deliberate and planned

2) Pings from ACARS ( hello ? hello ? ) were probably on a one hour basis after reaching ' cruise " Thus it would be possible to fly for about 1 hour AFTER the last ping- and dump it in the drink before the next scheduled ping.

3) It is also possible to get into lower bay ( required to shut down ACARS- ping ) and could be done with AX if nothing else ( special screwdriver may normally be required ?? )

4) passengers could have long since been out of picture via decompression at 20K plus for longer than passenger ox supply- while pilot(s) or baddie would still have sufficient Ox ( need to find out ETOPS requirements for Pilots OX )

5) IF ACARS shut down deliberately - then at least one hour radius from two positions on "ARC" would be a probable search area.

6) US navy/pentagon/ probably not sent to sea based on hunch - but more likely on data not yet released due to security issues.

7) Comparing cessna in red square is ridiculous - 777 is slightly larger and a bit more metal . .

8) By now, IF plane had landed - it would have been spotted

9) A feature or terrorism is FUD and zipping lips is very effective

10) still seems to be a mixup on time issues

11) 40K feet climb and stall seem to be not likely

12) IMO EVEN with various military assets, subs, sonar bouys, etc ELT pinger range in deep water may be limited for a variety of reasons best known by sonar operators. MAD devices may help . .
but at best about 3 weeks left to find ELT pinger..

12) IMO - other theories, area 51 style, gold bullion, refueling, hostages, arfe fodder for the coming 25 books on the subject via Tom clancy style- but should be relegated to the twilight zone or alternate universe types.
DWS is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2014, 16:10   #3980 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: London, UK
Age: 39
Posts: 46
@Perth WA

Quote:
Australia still waiting for a request to review radar?
Reported today (15th March):
No Cookies | Perth Now

AMSA says no reliable information about report MH370 tracked to ocean off Australia

THE Australian Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA) said it had no reliable information to indicate Malaysian Airlines flight MH370 may have approached Australia.

AMSA was responding to a single report today that the last satellite transmission from the missing jet was traced to the Indian Ocean off Australia.
<snip>

“MH370 may have flown beyond its last known position, about 1000 miles west of Perth, and that location may not be an indication of where the plane ended up,” the report states.

A search in Australian waters would be in the jurisdiction of AMSA.

A spokesman said: “AMSA has not received reliable information indicating that Malaysian Airlines’ flight MH370 may have approached Australia or entered the Australian search and rescue region.

“Should verified information or request for assistance be passed to AMSA from authorities coordinating the search for flight MH370, it will be assessed on its merits.

“Australia is assisting the search efforts with two Royal Australian Air Force P-3 Orion maritime patrol aircraft deployed to the region.

“The Bloomberg report will be passed to coordinating authorities for their assessment in the context of all of the other information they have available to them.”
---------------------------

interesting quote:
“Should verified information or request for assistance be passed to AMSA from authorities coordinating the search for flight MH370, it will be assessed on its merits.

So... Australia hasn't reviewed its primary radar data etc yet for any sign of MH370... Considering the IMARSAT data now available re the possible location west of Perth, I think this should have already been checked.
I didn't read it that way at all.

I used to deal with LoRs (Letters of Request - officially issued documents from investigating authorities to foreign jurisdictions) and due to legalities, it's not possible to confirm a sensitive negative (or positive) without official hoops being jumped through.
I think AMSA are saying is that they need a specific, officially-issued LoR (or similar) in order for them to respond officially and to confirm the area that they know the plane didn't fly over. And that currently nothing's leaping out at them.

Regarding reviewing the data, that should all be gathered and in the process of being 'de-sensitised' by now.
papershuffler is offline  
Closed Thread


Tags
acars, crash, elt, hf links, malaysian, mh370, missing, pingers, plane, vhf

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 18:28.


© 1996-2012 The Professional Pilots Rumour Network

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1