Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

[ExSp33db1rd]

The report said data automatically downloaded and sent to the ground from the Boeing 777’s engines indicated the plane remained in the air for a total of five hours – a further four hours after contact was lost.

but how could it fly on for a futher 4 hours without some sort of radar trace, if only as a large lump of metal i.e. without transponder, and if not following the original flight plan route what were various ATC jurisidictions doing, they must have noticed an unplanned intruder ?

[barrel_owl]

Engine performance data

Engine performance data are sent automatically through ACARS.

Now, IF such data were actually downlinked by the aircraft and indicate an additional 4 hour flight time, then two questions arise:

1) Where did the WSJ take this information from? Boeing? ARINC?
2) Why did Malaysia Airlines declared at an earlier stage of the investigation that no ACARS had been received after the time the aircraft had disappeared?

Either someone is speculating without any shred of evidence or someone is withholding vital information for some reason.

[volcanicash]

It struck me as odd, from the beginning, that a catastrophic event would happen right at the point of handover to another countrys ATC, where Comms were weak, and where radar coverage was nearing its limit. Not to say all the holes in the cheese lined up, it's definitely happened before, but .... if you planned to divert an aircraft, where else would you select?

Maybe somewhere that didn't involve immediately flying back over land, being tracked on primary radar and possibly having someone come up to take a closer look.

If I wanted to take an aircraft and head west, I might choose a flight that at least started off in the right direction and was heading out of (rather than into) PSR coverage...

[nitpicker330]

Now don't assume.

Engine/ACARS data is via VHF or Satcom datalink connection.

Only some are using HF data connections in the polar regions where Satcom is not reliable.

[training wheels]

Originally Posted by mabuhay_2000

Now we're getting some pilots casting aspersions about the unfortunate captain because he liked to play about with FlightSim on his days off? Seriously?

If you look at the profile of the one casting those aspersions, you'll find an 'artist' and not a pilot. Actually, a lot of pilots were infact saying it's normal for pilots to be passionate about their jobs and use flight sims at home. I use one when it's close to my proficiency check and yes, it does help to home in on those manual flying skills since most of the time when we fly on the line, the aircraft is on automatic pilot.

Originally Posted by mabuhay_2000

Casting aspersions about his actions and character, without a shred of evidence, is in very bad taste and people should know better.

Totally agree, and you'll find those who were defending the captain with his home flight sim, are infact pilots and regular posters on Pprune. Unlike the many "one post wonders" who are now swarming this thread with their far fetched and ridiculous Hollywood movie script conspiracy theories.

[EngineeringPilot]

So many mysteries!

Interesting read about what Malaysia is not telling us

Is Malaysia Airlines telling us the truth about Flight MH370? | News.com.au

[DaveReidUK]

They may be limited to engine parameters only, and just get added to a file for each powerplant, attracting no attention until someone goes looking for them.

There is clearly more to this than meets the eye.

We're asked to believe that an aircraft known to be fitted with Rolls' engine health monitoring system goes AWOL, and that it doesn't occur to anyone in Derby until several days later to go and look at how long EHM reports were being received from said aircraft.

That beggars belief - if it turns out to be true, heads should roll.

[itflewinitflewout]

Yes it is nitpicker, usually VHF 3 in my humble type exp. There's been no mention of HF I can see on the posts recently.

Regardless, I intend to sit back and watch the scenario unfold, and let the authorities do the vital work they're paid for. Noted your post below, Rgds for now

[nitpicker330]

UKSATCOMUK mentioned "HFDL" which I took under the comments to mean HF DATA LINK.

[EDMJ]

I've not seen it mentioned yet....

Has anyone considered similarities to Helios Airways Flight 522?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522

But in a much more 'remote' location and at night and over sea.

Yes, on every second page of this thread, by approximately 500 different posters.

In the case of Helios 522, the xpdr didn't stop working and the crew communicated pressurisation problems on the company frequency already during initial climb, just to name two dissimilarities. It has no bearing on this accident.

[hamster3null]

Originally Posted by barrel_owl

Engine performance data are sent automatically through ACARS.

Now, IF such data were actually downlinked by the aircraft and indicate an additional 4 hour flight time, then two questions arise:

1) Where did the WSJ take this information from? Boeing? ARINC?
2) Why did Malaysia Airlines declared at an earlier stage of the investigation that no ACARS had been received after the time the aircraft had disappeared?

Either someone is speculating without any shred of evidence or someone is withholding vital information for some reason.

It's my understanding that Malaysia Airlines would only receive ACARS messages which were specifically sent to it. For most messages (like the ones sent by AF447 before it crashed), the airline would be at least CC:'d. Here we're talking about engine maintenance data packets, which would end up in the inbox of the engine manufacturer, Rolls-Royce (or possibly Boeing).

[Sheep Guts]

We have seen the pax manifest. Was there cargo on board as well? That question needs to be asked today at the news conference today?

[jsypilot]

Does anyone know when we can expect the next official press conference to be scheduled?

[7x7]

What kind of radar tracking capability would Myanmar have, would it be possible to sneak up through their airspace?

Having flown in Burmese airspace on quite a few occasions (in a B777), (both East-West and North-South) in virtual radio blackout for an hour or more, I'd say it would be possible to take half the commercial airline fleet of western Europe in line abreast through that area without anyone being the wiser.

And mods, that is not meant to be flippant. Any pilot who has flown over those routes would agree with my sentiments, if perhaps not my overstatement.

[threemiles]

Conspiracy or catastrophe?

What else we know or guess?

1) COM: The crew saluted the Lumpur ACC when requested to switch frequency to HCM. Normal procedure. They never contacted HCM. Optimum point of time to take control of an airplane as the next sector would not immediately start asking . Catastrophe? Could be, but coincidental. Conspiracy? Needs support from the cockpit crew to hit this spot in time.

2) Transponder: went off at about the same time (obviously a little later than COM). Catastrophe? Could be, but airplane and debris should have been found. Decompression theory would leave transponder uneffected and on. Conspiracy? Crew needs to be involved or very smart hijackers as 9/11

3) ACARS (airframe): only two packets were sent on and after departure. Correlates with limited VHF ACARS coverage in the area. Also depends on the ACARS reporting settings if more was to expect. Every airline has its unique scheme.

4) ACARS (RR engines): packet(s) were received up to 4 hours after last contact. These packets come every 30 minutes. If the airplane had SATCOM AND ACARS via SATCOM was enabled (I doubt) these packets could be sent from elsewhere. A SATCOM antenna does not mean data can go via SATCOM! If the airplane had VHF only the associated ground station may be known, but it may take days to identify it or the data has been overwritten already.

5) Why is RR so late? a) Weekend. b) It takes time to crawl through the data, when they do not popup because of a technical anomality. c)It may be late, they may be archived.

[Neogen]

4) ACARS (RR engines) - Is there any official verification for this one?

[nitpicker330]

Our 777's were fitted with HF DATA LINK only when they needed to fly over the Polar regions where Satcom was not always available.

VHF is normally the preferred cheaper option, followed by SATCOM. HF is only used if the other 2 channels won't work. Probably due to the fact HF connections can be scratchy as they are time of day and weather effected etc.

[VinRouge]

Earlier Qn,

Diego doesn't have a radar, certainly no freqs listed.

I commented on this ages ago, but some form of unlawful interference combined with depressurization (did someone have a grenade that went off, were the individuals trying to gain access using a device?), jet stuck in heading mode, poodles on into Indian Ocean, Abdul and his mate switch off modes, jet left unfortunately without a trace.

Having flown recently in that part of the world, ( Indian Ocean) it's pretty bloody remote! Flying for a good 30 mins with absolutely no HF comms across a couple of boundaries (dream of cpdlc...)

As for regaining consciousness, not a chance if you were up at 300 for a few hours without oxy.

Unlikely though, I think that anything would have got through security.

Does VHF/hf acars connect to an arinc ground station direct or is it pushed along to other aircraft in the vicinity? I use hf data regularly, nowhere near as reliable as one would hope.

[SpaceCat]

I thought that data feedback to RR was only on engines installed on newer planes over the last few years, not the older plane on this flight?

[PyroTek]

I'm not too educated, being a humble GA pilot...

Is it possible for a 'failure' - not of the airframe, but of the systems/electrics, to render transponders/ACARS etc. (but not engine health reporting) unserviceable all at once?
Would that affect the flight controls to the point that they are useless?
If not:
One would expect that the pilots, having so much experience, could use the 'old fashioned' map and pencil (or even iPad) techniques to find their way back to solid ground and even perhaps pull their phone out and make a phone call from a realistic within somewhere in reception?

Or, I could just be a big fan of conspiracies...