Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost
Post by Bloxin
Take a look at Bloxin's very first post here. # 2370 He may be on to something.
I know the O2 bottle stuff has been discussed, but follow this.
The O2 bottle lets go, and renders transponders and comms inop. Maybe started a decompression.
The captain starts an a/p descent an hits the nearest TRN waypoint, which was shown by Tarzanboy, to be on the north end of Malaysia.
The plane turns, descends some, and tracks to TRN, then westward. The crew passes out due to no O2.
Maybe pax, cabin crew as well? Don't know where their O2 is located, or could be damaged by the original problem.
Just another set of ideas.
I know the O2 bottle stuff has been discussed, but follow this.
The O2 bottle lets go, and renders transponders and comms inop. Maybe started a decompression.
The captain starts an a/p descent an hits the nearest TRN waypoint, which was shown by Tarzanboy, to be on the north end of Malaysia.
The plane turns, descends some, and tracks to TRN, then westward. The crew passes out due to no O2.
Maybe pax, cabin crew as well? Don't know where their O2 is located, or could be damaged by the original problem.
Just another set of ideas.
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The Telegraph correspondent in Malaysia put out a short video update earlier, pointing out that all the countries in that area are busy watching each other and carrying out naval exercises but not letting on to each other. So several countries may know more than they are letting on via local radar and shipping capabilities. Maybe this is why the Malaysian military backtracked over the radar tracking of MH370, did not want to nearby countries know their capability. Maybe also they tracked it further than they are letting on?
Pax o2 on the 777 is chemically generated, (unit at each row/section) therefore should still work even if the flight deck o2 doesn't... So theoretically the masks should still drop on auto at 14000'....
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Originally Posted by bloxin
777: The crew oxygen bottle is mounted horizontaly on the left aft wall of the nose wheel well structure with the fittings (propelling nozzle) facing forward. This aims the bottle, in the event of a QF30 type failure, directly into the MEC containing all boxes concerned with coms and a lot more.
Before all of its energy is spent, an huge amount of damage could be caused to equipment and the bottle could, conceivably, cause a decompression.
When the crew respond by doning oxygen mask, there is no oxygen and hypoxia is the next link in this proposed chain of events.
This link is entitled "Hypothetical" and is only that. I believe it ticks a few boxes.
Hoping this post make it and generates some discussion.
Before all of its energy is spent, an huge amount of damage could be caused to equipment and the bottle could, conceivably, cause a decompression.
When the crew respond by doning oxygen mask, there is no oxygen and hypoxia is the next link in this proposed chain of events.
This link is entitled "Hypothetical" and is only that. I believe it ticks a few boxes.
Hoping this post make it and generates some discussion.
An 'event' in that underfloor equipment bay (posted earlier with a YouTube link, and with diagrams) suggests there is a lot of collocation of equipment.
Would someone with relevant expertise advise on the consequences of a major event (deliberate or accidental) in that compartment? What equipment might be disabled as a result? Consequent Cabin depressurisation? A simple list rather than a dissertation might suffice for now.
I'm specifically thinking of SSR, Comms, FD Crew oxygen. Could that allow normal Autopilot operation whilst the FD becomes incapacitated? Thus permitting the aircraft to proceed on its way (whichever that may be) until (whatever) finally destroys flight integrity? In other words, an airborne "Marie Celeste"
Last edited by MPN11; 12th Mar 2014 at 17:39. Reason: Last short sentence
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Regarding the transponder OFF reason...
One of the tasks by the PNF/FO ( company dependent) in various emergency QRH procedures, including emergency descend, is to put the Transponder to TA on a lot of types/ airlines. ( can anyone confirm this for b777?)
I have seen multiple times that the PNF in high stress situations selects the transponder from TA/RA to OFF instead of TA.
By the way, FL295 is a non normal FL, and could have been flown to avoid other traffic as described in various contingency procedures, albeit in non-radar environments.
One of the tasks by the PNF/FO ( company dependent) in various emergency QRH procedures, including emergency descend, is to put the Transponder to TA on a lot of types/ airlines. ( can anyone confirm this for b777?)
I have seen multiple times that the PNF in high stress situations selects the transponder from TA/RA to OFF instead of TA.
By the way, FL295 is a non normal FL, and could have been flown to avoid other traffic as described in various contingency procedures, albeit in non-radar environments.
Last edited by despegue; 12th Mar 2014 at 17:18. Reason: Clarity
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I will always remember talking to a female project manager who worked at GCHQ.
She said that you could be tracked when your mobile phone was switched off.
We all laughed - but later I wondered if that was in fact true?
I don't know whether you can or you can't, but the point is who knows what is possible?
I've heard stories over the years from various sources about what was possible and what they have seen done. All of this is commonplace now - but seemed like science fiction 15 years ago.
She said that you could be tracked when your mobile phone was switched off.
We all laughed - but later I wondered if that was in fact true?
I don't know whether you can or you can't, but the point is who knows what is possible?
I've heard stories over the years from various sources about what was possible and what they have seen done. All of this is commonplace now - but seemed like science fiction 15 years ago.
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not been trough all the 120 pages, so bear with me if discussed before.
I am wondering if it was carrying cargo and if yes what was in that cargo.
That might give a new way to look at it ,especially if it was carrying something highly valuable.
I am wondering if it was carrying cargo and if yes what was in that cargo.
That might give a new way to look at it ,especially if it was carrying something highly valuable.
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@Mixture
I know, I'm familiar with use of the system in an application with SIL requirements.
This technology makes it possible to mix tree types of traffic on the same network with special network switches:
- BE: Ethernet/IEE802.3
- RC: AFDX/ARINC 664
- TT: TTEthernet/SAE AS6802
Best Effort Traffic (BE) could be used for IFE, while TT (with byzantine fault-tolerance) could be used for flight-control systems. The BE traffic class does not have safety properties, and gets the remaining bandwidth of RC and TT.
If TTTech's claims is correct it should be possible to route 'hostile' BE traffic on a network with TT SIL3 traffic. (But it might still be good to separate this in separate networks)
http://www.tttech.com/fileadmin/cont..._Aerospace.pdf
An old version of this technology (that is incompatible with std. Ethernet.) is in use on the cabin pressurization system on A380.
None of those are features you need for IFE systems. Its quite obvious from the manufacturers description what it's for !
This technology makes it possible to mix tree types of traffic on the same network with special network switches:
- BE: Ethernet/IEE802.3
- RC: AFDX/ARINC 664
- TT: TTEthernet/SAE AS6802
Best Effort Traffic (BE) could be used for IFE, while TT (with byzantine fault-tolerance) could be used for flight-control systems. The BE traffic class does not have safety properties, and gets the remaining bandwidth of RC and TT.
If TTTech's claims is correct it should be possible to route 'hostile' BE traffic on a network with TT SIL3 traffic. (But it might still be good to separate this in separate networks)
http://www.tttech.com/fileadmin/cont..._Aerospace.pdf
An old version of this technology (that is incompatible with std. Ethernet.) is in use on the cabin pressurization system on A380.
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Did MH370 really turn back?
Radar slant angle has been mentioned a couple of times (maybe more). I think the effect of slant angle may have a greater significance than many think. Quick recap: Radar slant angle refers to the fact that a primary radar measures the distance from the ground up to an airborne target, not the "map" distance. This means that a falling (or rapidly descending) target may appear to move toward the radar location.
To visualize this, I did a quick simulation of what happens if an aircraft goes ballistic (literally, i.e. a ballistic trajectory from stable flight after some instant event) from FL350, and how that will look on primary military surveillance radar from the Malaysian coast (not knowing exact radar locations, I had to do some guesswork)
The plot shows what happens to the aircraft crusing at FL350 heading 25 deg, ground speed 470 kts, and then some catastrophic event happening as it passes through the lower left corner. Assuming the drag does not increase (i.e. not significant breakup of the fuselage), the A/C initially continues at the same airspeed, but then picks up a downward component (ballistic trajectory).
On the radar, as the trajectory gets more and more vertical, this looks like the A/C is turning back (the dots are 6 seconds apart, consistent with a typical military search radar's rotation rate). The last 4 returns before the A/C goes below radar horizon appear to move in the opposite direction, consistent with a stable heading of ~220 (directly toward the radar site), albeit at a low speed.
All of this assumes, of course, that the radar has no accurate means of detecting altitude at this range. And what is a highly unusual manoeuver may well be seen as a sharp turn by radar operators.
Now for the speculation: This may have caused the Malaysians to start thinking the A/C turned around, which in turn may have led to some questions to the military about why an "incoming" target was not seen again on radar, face-saving cycle begins, etc...
Bottom line: I don't think the search between Malaysia and Vietnam should be given up just yet.
To visualize this, I did a quick simulation of what happens if an aircraft goes ballistic (literally, i.e. a ballistic trajectory from stable flight after some instant event) from FL350, and how that will look on primary military surveillance radar from the Malaysian coast (not knowing exact radar locations, I had to do some guesswork)
The plot shows what happens to the aircraft crusing at FL350 heading 25 deg, ground speed 470 kts, and then some catastrophic event happening as it passes through the lower left corner. Assuming the drag does not increase (i.e. not significant breakup of the fuselage), the A/C initially continues at the same airspeed, but then picks up a downward component (ballistic trajectory).
On the radar, as the trajectory gets more and more vertical, this looks like the A/C is turning back (the dots are 6 seconds apart, consistent with a typical military search radar's rotation rate). The last 4 returns before the A/C goes below radar horizon appear to move in the opposite direction, consistent with a stable heading of ~220 (directly toward the radar site), albeit at a low speed.
All of this assumes, of course, that the radar has no accurate means of detecting altitude at this range. And what is a highly unusual manoeuver may well be seen as a sharp turn by radar operators.
Now for the speculation: This may have caused the Malaysians to start thinking the A/C turned around, which in turn may have led to some questions to the military about why an "incoming" target was not seen again on radar, face-saving cycle begins, etc...
Bottom line: I don't think the search between Malaysia and Vietnam should be given up just yet.
Source: federal agent who goes to my church.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 12th Mar 2014 at 17:34.
@ mabuhay_2000:
I've worked with computers for... hmm... all my working life, in the aviation industry, one way or another, and some things are plausible, while other not. The idea that a T7 "computer system" could be hacked is, shall we say, less likely than the idea that this aircraft was hit by a meteor in my opinion. At one point I worked on a T7 flight simulator that used the entire aircraft AIMS system avionics boxes, and despite full access to the source code, those boxes were basically impossible to interface to, other than via their intended interfaces. As you might know, one function of flight simulators is to allow certain malfunctions to be introduced, to allow fault conditions to be trained, but this was extremely difficult in this case.
I've worked with computers for... hmm... all my working life, in the aviation industry, one way or another, and some things are plausible, while other not. The idea that a T7 "computer system" could be hacked is, shall we say, less likely than the idea that this aircraft was hit by a meteor in my opinion. At one point I worked on a T7 flight simulator that used the entire aircraft AIMS system avionics boxes, and despite full access to the source code, those boxes were basically impossible to interface to, other than via their intended interfaces. As you might know, one function of flight simulators is to allow certain malfunctions to be introduced, to allow fault conditions to be trained, but this was extremely difficult in this case.
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Slow pinhole leak? Have you seen the size of the outflow valve?!
Are you thinking of the external cover on the fuselage - that is not the valve.
The actual valve/actuator are internal and much smaller!
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Military How it works
Retired F4
Perhaps it was a slow trip up the chain of command to someone authorized to initiate action and at that point the plane was over the Straits of Malacca heading west at flight level 295 at which point command may have decided it is Indonesia's problem not mine.
Perhaps it was a slow trip up the chain of command to someone authorized to initiate action and at that point the plane was over the Straits of Malacca heading west at flight level 295 at which point command may have decided it is Indonesia's problem not mine.
Originally Posted by givemewings
Pax o2 on the 777 is chemically generated, (unit at each row/section) therefore should still work even if the flight deck o2 doesn't... So theoretically the masks should still drop on auto at 14000'....
Some 777s have pax O2 from multiple bottles in the sidewalls of the cargo hold.
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Actual AF 447 report for dougydog
You wrote : " Where I asked the clearly stupid question: What were they even doing in the middle of a severe thunderstorm. I was just asking pertinent questions, IMO. "
but can you kindly (at least) read the final (actual) report :
http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....let2012.en.pdf
as it was an usual weather in the F.I.T where, from dozen of years, planes go through (and I went through by 1972 / 1978 on planes such as DC-10.30). Now I am an old retired one ....
for your information too, the final technical report is the one on the url (I put the English version for you) and there is a trial going on in France which will be before court in some months for this case.
but can you kindly (at least) read the final (actual) report :
http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....let2012.en.pdf
as it was an usual weather in the F.I.T where, from dozen of years, planes go through (and I went through by 1972 / 1978 on planes such as DC-10.30). Now I am an old retired one ....
for your information too, the final technical report is the one on the url (I put the English version for you) and there is a trial going on in France which will be before court in some months for this case.
Crew O2 bottles end fittings face aft not fwd.
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India asked to join Search-where is their radar data?
One unfortunate side impact of missing 777 is that it has revealed just how pathetic military radar coverage is in the region. Nations are naturally reticent regarding what their radars can see or not, but in this case it has become apparent that Vietnam, Malaysia have at best spotty military radar coverage and poor Indonesia is not even bothering to claim any capabilities. Indians who are never shy of emphasizing just how sensitive Andaman sea is to their national security have not come forward with any radar data which they should have, had their radars been "looking" east as they claim to be.
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@TURIN
On the pics of the cargo bay pointed to by bloxin there is also visible damage on the "nozzle end" of the exploded oxygen bottle. Of course this damage may be more a result of decompression than of the explosion itself.
On the other hand if the thread of the bottle fails, the outlet connector and the valve would give a pretty good projectile. Here is a picture of that potential projectile.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...ml#post4297606
On the pics of the cargo bay pointed to by bloxin there is also visible damage on the "nozzle end" of the exploded oxygen bottle. Of course this damage may be more a result of decompression than of the explosion itself.
On the other hand if the thread of the bottle fails, the outlet connector and the valve would give a pretty good projectile. Here is a picture of that potential projectile.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...ml#post4297606
