Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

AF 747 hit severe weather between Rio and Paris

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

AF 747 hit severe weather between Rio and Paris

Old 14th Nov 2013, 05:18
  #1 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 73
Posts: 3,657
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
AF 747 hit severe weather between Rio and Paris

Reports this morning of an Air France B747 en route from Rio to Paris to have hit severe weather and returned to Rio last night. Those who saw the aircraft said there was significant damage to it .
More info later today no doubt.
ATC Watcher is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2013, 05:48
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: In transit
Age: 70
Posts: 3,052
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Violent hailstorm forces Air France jumbo jet to turn back

Accident: Air France B744 at Rio de Janeiro on Nov 12th 2013, hail strike

The nose cone shows some damage.
Capetonian is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2013, 06:04
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: My Stringy Brane
Posts: 377
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Globo News reports the flight returned two hours after departure due to shattered windscreen.

Photos show damaged nose cone, windscreen and landing light cover.

Highest temp so far this year approaching 42C, with thunderstorms and hail.
Machaca is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2013, 07:15
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lost in EU
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Again Captain in a back and FO as cruise relief??
5 APUs captain is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2013, 07:56
  #5 (permalink)  

DOVE
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Myself
Age: 77
Posts: 1,179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
And luckily the pitot remained uncorked!!!
DOVES is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2013, 09:39
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: formally Alamo battleground, now the crocodile with palm trees!
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Grrr

Wait! According to some posters on this forum this flight should have continued to its destination
Squawk7777 is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2013, 09:42
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
No worries, even if the pitot did get clogged up, they couldn't possibly repeat AF447; Primarily due to the fact the PNF would feel the yoke in his gut if the PF was attempting to follow the footsteps of his counterpart on AF447, this would probably lead to the PNF slapping the him into pushing forward!
LiveryMan is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2013, 09:46
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: frying pan
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Something wrong with the WX radars on both Airbus and Boeing a/c belonging only to AF
hifly787 is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2013, 09:51
  #9 (permalink)  
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Let's just be thankful for small mercies - they didn't crash. A positive for AF.
BOAC is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2013, 15:11
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK
Age: 83
Posts: 3,788
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
"Something wrong with the WX radars on both Airbus and Boeing a/c belonging to AF".

Or, alternatively, something wrong with the pilots operating the WX radar. I have flown with a depressing number of pilots who really did not know how to operate their WX radar properly.
JW411 is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2013, 15:25
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denver
Posts: 1,216
Received 12 Likes on 7 Posts
Reading comprehension problems...or axes to grind?

This flight never reached cruise phase. Hit hail on climbout and leveled off at FL150. Likely never got more than 60 miles (100 km) from Rio. Most likely effect on pitots (if any) would be to dent them or knock them loose - not plug them.

If anyone wants to "overcook" the sparse relationship between this event and AF447, go ahead - but presumably we won't see you getting all huffy with "the media" when they "overcook" future incidents.

Right? Right!
pattern_is_full is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2013, 15:31
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Worldwide
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by JW411
I have flown with a depressing number of pilots who really did not know how to operate their WX radar properly.
Perhaps an indication of the quality of their trainers.

Their could also just come to PPRuNE where experts are at hand 24/7. Some are even so good that actually having flown an aircraft is unnecessary.
KBPsen is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2013, 15:36
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Girls, girls, let's play nicely together.
poorjohn is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2013, 16:00
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 2,451
Likes: 0
Received 9 Likes on 5 Posts
Hail is a much underestimated threat. If as pure ice alone, vs hail-rain mix, hail is difficult to detect on radar. The management of radar is important, adjacent storms with rain or rain at lower altitudes could provide some warning, but during the climb the radar scan may be biased towards the climb altitude.

Hail damage can be very severe and not normally detectable on the flight deck, particularly holes or reduced strength of composite structures – nose cone and wing fairings.
A damaged nose cone might affect drag; a damaged wing fairing could affect lift and drag with severe consequences. Also consider other potential hazards - an overlooked CB, windshear, turbulence.

TEM; first avoidance if detected, or reduce the effects if encountered - reduce speed, then manage the results – slow speed, check, inspect, return. Select a safe course of action.

Safety is not about counting accidents or errors, it requires an understanding of how people manage the hazards in everyday operation; just think about the situations, decisions, and actions.
Celebrate the successes and consider what might we learn from this incident.
safetypee is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2013, 16:11
  #15 (permalink)  

DOVE
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Myself
Age: 77
Posts: 1,179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Let's put it anyway we want. We all know how dangerous it is, and therefore forbidden to take off, to land, even flying near a Cb cloud, and we have at our disposal all means (folder meteo, wx radar, other traffic, air traffic control, etc..) To avoid it.
-Did they take off in the vicinity of a thunderstorm?
-Did they dump fuel (they were certainly above the maximum landing weight)?
-Was it a wise decision to return to landing rehearsing through the hell they came from?

If an inconvenience occurs more than once, it means that someone has to intervene in some way: on training?
But let's wait the report to be published.
DOVES is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2013, 16:12
  #16 (permalink)  

Aviator Extraordinaire
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Age: 76
Posts: 2,394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I have seen aircraft that had encountered hail from thunderstorms while they were nealy 50 miles down wind from the cells.

It can happen. You cannot paint hail on the vast majority of aircraft radar, unless it is really large sized hail and you know what to look for. As for visually seeing hail, yes you can, just after you hit it.

So assuming that this AF crew blindly or willingly flew into a thunderstorm, maybe completely wrong and probably is.

But, assuming is what this forum is famous for and I don't think I'll live long enough to see that change.
con-pilot is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2013, 17:40
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 64
Posts: 7,131
Received 319 Likes on 204 Posts
We used to teach that you keep 20 miles away form TS cells / lines since hail can be projected out of tops for some miles. From the AIM, IIRC. Con, your anecdote (50 miles) makes chills go up my spine.

A friend of mine in a T-34C, back in the 80's, got lucky as he flew in New Mexico/West Texas area on a navigation flight, FL 230 or so.
Bigger hail might have done more damage than was done.

Got peppered with hail, lots of damage to the cowlings, cracks to the canopies, had to put her down and wait for a maintenance crew to come and patch it up before it returned to home station. Could have been worse.
Lonewolf_50 is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2013, 17:41
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 2,451
Likes: 0
Received 9 Likes on 5 Posts
DOVES, careful how you make your points; I hope that I have not misunderstood.
Knowing that something is dangerous is an essential starting point, but it is the personal knowing at the time that the hazard which determines the threat – it has to be recognised and action chosen.
The choice (the forbidding) does not come from someone else – SOP dependency, it’s you who has to consider the circumstances and apply personal rules – the ‘forbidding’ is guidance – does the SOP know if hail has been detected or not, etc.

Inconvenience, no; it was a choice of action. We can assume that the decision in this instance was made with the evidence, beliefs, and knowledge at that time (if not why not), thus all such decisions are good. It’s only with hindsight that decisions are categorised, good, poor, but not ‘wrong’, only opportunities to learn and improve.
If the inconvenience reoccurs then it’s another opportunity to learn; it’s not for the industry to point at the crew and suggests more training. Such action is no more than blame and train; perhaps the industry, other operators, and pilots might learn from such experiences.
safetypee is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2013, 18:36
  #19 (permalink)  

DOVE
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Myself
Age: 77
Posts: 1,179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If the inconvenience reoccurs then it’s another opportunity to learn; it’s not for the industry to point at the crew and suggests more training. Such action is no more than blame and train; perhaps the industry, other operators, and pilots might learn from such experiences.
14th Nov 2013 19:40
That's exactly what I long for.
DOVES is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2013, 18:47
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Ormond Beach
Age: 48
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by KBPsen

Their could also just come to PPRuNe where experts are at hand 24/7. Some are even so good that actually having flown an aircraft is unnecessary.
Ain't THAT the truth?! Especially when the mods consistently support such "experts".
flyboyike is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.