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Old 7th Jul 2013, 05:25   #301 (permalink)
 
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Of course the passengers are going to take their luggage, the Chinese passengers especially, they don't do rules, they do what they want.

I'd like to see ANYONE try and take a wheeler/box of fruit/box of tea off an China mainland pax during an evacuation !!!

And besides if your passport gets burnt in the overhead bin, do you have ANY idea how much hassle US Immigration will give you? Better to have your passport , breeze through the airport and you'll be in Chinatown slurping noodles before you know it.......

Thats why I always carry my passport in my pocket.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 05:26   #302 (permalink)
 
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Exit impeded by kids in car seats?

The only person farther from the aisle than a car seat would be an accompanying adult.

Unfastening the child from a car seat and evacuating is a lot quicker and less disruptive than having to find the child and evacuating.

(Relates to Asiana flight crash at San Francisco)

Last edited by awblain; 7th Jul 2013 at 05:34. Reason: Added link to comment replied to.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 05:27   #303 (permalink)
 
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"Big aeroplanes, legacy carriers and Asian airlines..the triage does nothing to encourage visually flown approaches. Infact, a visual approach is anathema to the firm I work for and on the 777 fleet, rarely flown either for real or in the sim..due "threat"..wtf!!! For the kids doing right seat conversions to type, an end of sim VMC, no vasi, no ILS approach, under..lets just have a go and no test threat...is a real eye opener!! Flying schools, or at least flying school precursors for the airlines do not engender a culture of visual and manual flying. Low energy conditions, stall incipients etc are all covered by modules and the insurance of protections by the myriad of auto systems. Mix that with the barrier culture of Asian "face" and the risk of incident is increased immeasurably. The CVR will be an interesting if not indicting piece of evidence in MHO.... "




Funny. I don't remember Jacob Veldhuyzen van Zanten being Asian at all.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 05:43   #304 (permalink)
 
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Engines?

Looking at the debris field is that the right engine PW upside down up against the right side of the aircraft? If so where is the other engine?
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 06:22   #305 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
I asked about 300 ft per mile approach profile for visual and non precision approaches
It's been ages since I last posted on this forum.

Just recalled the other rule of halving your ground speed to target your RoD ... it seems nobody cares about this rule of thumb either.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 06:24   #306 (permalink)

 
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All of the experienced Pilots know these rules of thumb and use them where needed.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 06:37   #307 (permalink)
 
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According to CNN, the two deceased individuals found on the runway were both holders of Chinese passports. Would flight attendants have had Chinese passports?
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 06:42   #308 (permalink)
 
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Exclamation Stable approach?

From FLIGHTAWARE:
At 11.7 nm final 4200 feet (about 520 feet high)
At 800ft, ROD 1380ft/min 145kts
At 600ft , ROD 1320ft/min 141kts
At 100ft, ROD 120ft/min 109kts !!!
(Then at 200ft, ROD +120ft/min, 85kts) probably spurious or a Stall
"STABLE" ???
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 06:57   #309 (permalink)
 
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The 777 can catch you out with with what is known as the "FLCH trap."

When you are above the glide slope and need to get down in a hurry Flight Level Change (FLCH) is a useful mode to use. Normally you transfer to another mode like glideslope or vertical speed, or you switch off the flight directors.

However in this situation the glideslope was off the air so the ILS would not have ben selected or armed. If the flight directors were left on and the plane was descending at a high rate in FLCH the autothrottle would have been inhibited and would not have put on power so the thrust levers would have stayed at idle.

If the Asiana was a bit high (quite normal for SFO) then regained the visual glideslope, the rate of descent would have decreased and the speed would have started slowly reducing but with the thrust levers staying at idle the 777 would now be in the same situation as the Turkish 737 at AMS, ie speed decreasing below Vref and not being noticed.

The 777 has autothrottle wake up, ie when the aircraft approaches a stall the power comes on automatically to almost full power. This gives pilots great confidence however autothrottle wake up is inhibited in FLCH.

So 777 pilots will be looking at this scenario and wondering if Asiana were in FLCH with flight directors on, too high, stabilised late and did not notice they were still in FLCH and that the autothrottle was not keeping the speed to Vref plus 5 untl too late.

Just a theory but I think it far more likely than engine failure, radalt failure or autothrottle failure and I suspect when the events are unravelled this will be what has happend.

Last edited by suninmyeyes; 7th Jul 2013 at 08:01.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 07:01   #310 (permalink)
 
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According to CNN, the two deceased individuals found on the runway were both holders of Chinese passports. Would flight attendants have had Chinese passports?

Quite possible, I know Korean Air uses Chinese cabin crew quite often.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 07:01   #311 (permalink)
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Poor souls. Looking at the jagged edge of the rear bulkhead, I'd imagine they may have been injured before hitting the ground.

Would there still be significant cabin pressure at that stage?

I'm really surprised at the way the dome is torn open. I assume there is no structural member attached to the centre that would have pulled on it when the tail came off.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 07:02   #312 (permalink)
 
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I have been flying into SFO quite a bit recently. There has been construction on 28R and left for a while. The threshold has been displaced and the ILS and PAPI are OTS.

We do the FMS bridge visual to 28R almost exclusively. The only vertical guidance is the FMS VNAV path and my Mark 1 eyeballs. I haven't done an ILS into SFO in a long time, you don't need it if you know how to fly.

The 300' per nautical mile is ingrained in our flying, we do a visual in the sim with no aids every year (we only do 12 month AQP sessions).

This may turn out to be a repeat of the JAL DC8 accident in 1968. Maybe we will see an acknowledgement similar to Captain Asoh. Article 160 of the Korean criminal code provides for sentencing to a prison labor camp of you are responsible for aircraft damage. This will not be a good outcome for that crew. And it would be worse if they had been expats.

I was offered a contract at Asiana back in the 90s, I have friends flying in Korea and China now. The remarks you read hear about culture and competence are valid. These guys are not trained to fly anything but rigid procedures. They are not comfortable outside their tight little box. Aviation exists in too fluid an environment to be operated this way.

Last edited by cactusbusdrvr; 7th Jul 2013 at 07:02.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 07:04   #313 (permalink)
 
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Some passengers reported "rattling/shaking" just before initial impact...Stall??
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 07:07   #314 (permalink)
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Quote:
According to CNN, the two deceased individuals found on the runway were both holders of Chinese passports. Would flight attendants have had Chinese passports?
In this case, the fatalities are likely female students from a high school class trip. Chinese press is reporting that 2 female students have not checked in yet.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 07:17   #315 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Asiana jet crash further tarnishes Korean carrier's safety record
By Jack Kim and Hyunjoo Jin | Reuters

SEOUL (Reuters) - Asiana Airlines, the South Korean carrier whose Boeing 777 crashed while landing at San Francisco airport on Saturday, had been trying to clean up a tarnished safety record that included two other fatal crashes in its 25-year history.

One of the pilots of flight 214, Lee Jeong-min, is a veteran who has spent his career at Asiana. He was among four pilots on the plane who rotated in two-person shifts during the 10 hour-plus flight, a senior Asiana official told Reuters.

"The pilot's name is Lee Jeong-min, and (he is) a veteran pilot with long experience," said the official, who requested anonymity. "Our investigation committee is looking into the accident in San Francisco," he said.

Lee, in his late 40s, had 12,387 hours of flying experience, including 3,220 hours on the Boeing 777, according to the Transport Ministry in Seoul.

A second pilot on board the aircraft, Lee Kang-kook, had 9,793 hours flying experience and 43 hours on the 777.

The ministry said earlier that the aircraft's fuselage appeared to have hit the ground, sending the plane off the runway and causing massive damage to the body of the jet.

Asiana, South Korea's junior carrier, is a member of the Star Alliance with 91 international passenger routes, 28 cargo and 14 domestic routes. It operates a fleet of 80 aircraft.

Two years ago, one of its 747 cargo jets bound for Shanghai crashed into the sea off Korea's Jeju island after taking off from Incheon airport. Two pilots on board were killed in the crash, which was blamed on mechanical problems.

In 1993, an Asiana domestic flight from Seoul crashed in driving wind and extremely poor visibility in a botched landing attempt, killing 66 people and injuring 44.

An inquiry found pilot error was the cause of that crash when the plane began a descent while it was still passing over a mountain peak.

Asiana was founded in 1988 by the Kumho Asiana transport and construction conglomerate at a time when South Korea wanted to boost its international appeal as an emerging economic power.

It launched its first international route two years later with flights to Tokyo and Hong Kong, then added flights to Southeast Asia and Los Angeles the following year, gradually expanding destinations to Europe and the Americas.

Asiana has been serving only six U.S. cities and four in Europe, compared with the 21 routes it flies to Japan and more than 30 to China.

With almost 30 mid- to long-range Airbus A350s on order, it has been hoping to meet soaring long-range passenger demand. Six A380 planes are also on order.

Asiana and Korean Air have been vying to increase U.S. routes to cope with rising demand after South Korea was included in the U.S. visa waiver program in 2008.

The two South Korean carriers' fleets were previously flown mainly by former air force pilots, but they have been gradually adding more civilians to their cockpits. According to the Transport Ministry, the ratio is now roughly equal.

(Additional reporting by Ju-min Park; Editing by Paul Tait)
...

From Yahoo Canada
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 07:19   #316 (permalink)
 
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Weather does not look to be an issue. clear skys, day ops.

Fatigue may have contributed. Off body clock, long(ish) flight.

IMO, with no approach guidance they may have decided to complete a raw data visual approach with no auto throttle.

From my experience the 777 A/T is very good. Speed decay would not occur like this (viewing the speed alt data posted earlier).

So, they either decided to turn the A/T off for the approach or it was U/S. More like switched to be switched off as i doubt they would have dispatched with both A/T's U/S ex Seoul.

When you look at the speed vs alt data speed was within ball park approaching 600'. I am guessing they may have taken full flap @ 600' (or just prior) and left thrust at idle (manual thrust). speed was recorded at 85kts @ 120'!!! The stick shaker would have been activated shortly before this and this is when i am assume they attempted a go around? Manual full thrust, nose pitch up but it was all a bit late?? Kinda goes with what passengers reporting with engine noise.

None of this information is factual. Just my opinion on what I have seen and read so far.

Also out of interest, there was a 747-400 holding short of 28L. This could have been a disaster if they had speared left a little earlier.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 07:20   #317 (permalink)
 
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In UK if a runway has no PAPI's then no commercial flights...........
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 07:27   #318 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
He says his Asian students come over here for their specialized JAA/EASA and FAA ab initio training
I worked a few years ago at a flight school which existed on Asian training contracts, mostly from China, Vietnam, and Korea. It was remarkable how many students simply did not want to be pilots. They were there because they had been told to become a pilot by either the state, or by family.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 07:28   #319 (permalink)
 
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Exclamation Stable Approach Criteria.

From FLIGHTAWARE:
At 11.7 nm final 4200 feet
At 800ft, ROD 1380ft/min 145kts
At 600ft , ROD 1320ft/min 141kts
At 100ft, ROD 120ft/min 109kts
Then at 200ft, ROD +120ft/min, 85kts (STALL or Spurious)
"STABLE" ???
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 07:28   #320 (permalink)
 
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PAPIs and VASIs were installed at airports all those years ago to enhance safety as they are aids in ensuring a stable approach during the visual segment of an approach to landing.

SFO 28L/R G/S have been Notamed out for the last 3 weeks and despite that, pilots from all different airlines and countries have done hundreds of visual approaches without incident.

So sure, the average airline crew is supposed to be able to do a visual approach to landing without an issue. However if Accident and Incident reports tell us one thing, its that they happen when we least expect them to and the reasons for their occurrence ranges from the sublime to the ridiculous.

Coming from the west, they would have been vectored for the downwind. If they found them selves high turning base they would have been busy trying to "get back into the slot". Without the traditional vertical guidance of the G/S and PAPI, it takes a little more brainwork (using their FMS or handy 3 in 1 rule would have helped) to make it all come together. However, if they haven't done any raw visuals in recent times it is possible to lose Situational Awareness (positional and operational) during the resulting "Arms and Elbows" moment.

In our business, Mr. Murphy is always lurking not too far in the background and with these safety enhancers unavailable, Statistics and Probability once again formed an alliance and the dreaded Swiss Cheese holes lined up, resulting in what looks to be an undershoot in this very Lonnnngg and Heaaaaavvy 777. (Go Around at Company Mandated Alt)

This is all speculation of course but I just can't see this accident happening if the ILS and/or PAPI was operational in SFO. My 2 cents.

But for the Grace of God go I....

Last edited by Jasavir; 7th Jul 2013 at 07:39.
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