Asiana flight crash at San Francisco

[ttowne1267]

fire

The NTSB will address flame propagation, but I would think the fuselage fire was initiated by belly skin friction. Certainly plausible, but not as likely, that the fire at the starboard wing root migrated to mid-cabin... especially when the picture shows the CFR fire truck already in the act of fire suppression. IMHO

[djaferisp]

is he asking for go-around here? and then its suddenly an emergency?

Asiana 214 KSFO Crash Landing ATC - YouTube

[hoggsnortrupert]

stabilised approaches:

On page 11 I asked about 300 ft per mile approach profile for visual and non precision approaches, I would have thought that someone would have commented on this very "basic" procedure, but not a comment, either its not worth the input, or people dont understand the importance of it:
The silence is Interesting:

[Toruk Macto]

Saving face in Asian cultures has a bearing on making a go around .

[CUTiger78]

Re. Buttscratcher's post # 269 http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post7926482 -
Yeah, heads ought to roll. Wonder if anybody'll get fired. Administrator Huerta should be the first to go, but that'll never happen.

[musicman476]

I know in the crash I was involved in, the airline contracted a company to retrieve all cabin & cargo baggage. They cataloged it all with photos and put it online for the survivors to view on a private site. We were able to visually ID which items were ours and they were returned to us. I was even able to get the book I was reading back- albeit with a few charred pages.

[C441]

A quick glance at Flightaware altitude and speed recordings shows 'normal' speed with altitude until 200ft where the speed has reduced to 85kts. Whilst these scales are probably prone to inaccuracies close to the ground, a look at other flight's altitude vs speed recordings shows that even down to 200ft, the speed recorded is still usually 'normal'.

85kts at 200ft, would perhaps suggest a realisation that the approach profile was not right, followed by a rapid raising of the nose without sufficient thrust (for whatever reason).

I guess we'll know soon enough.

[scandistralian]

@hoggsnotrupert from memory (although its been over 7 months since I landed a 777 @ KSFO) you are cleared a visual, but you back it up with ILS guidance from ISFO 109.55, but apparently the G/S was out, nonetheless, you would still have vertical guidance available in the form of VNAV/PAPI/Aim Point etc.

[ZKSUJ]

I asked about 300 ft per mile approach profile for visual and non precision approaches

Here's you're 1st re[ply. You're not alone. I use it as a rule of thumb too, very handy when planning profiles on a visual. And I know many others in my company do the same

[ironbutt57]

Even on a visual, an electronic glideslope must be respected if it's available

[Mic Dundee]

Originally Posted by donpizmeov

Mic Dundee,
It would seem your son in law is not doing a very good job of instructing if he sends these chaps home unable to "think out of the box" or show some airmanship . Perhaps they need to use another flight training school.

You're correct, in that these blokes aren't trainable (he didn't recommend the guy).

[Suvarnabhumi]

Of course the passengers are going to take their luggage, the Chinese passengers especially, they don't do rules, they do what they want.

I'd like to see ANYONE try and take a wheeler/box of fruit/box of tea off an China mainland pax during an evacuation !!!

And besides if your passport gets burnt in the overhead bin, do you have ANY idea how much hassle US Immigration will give you? Better to have your passport , breeze through the airport and you'll be in Chinatown slurping noodles before you know it.......

Thats why I always carry my passport in my pocket.

[awblain]

Exit impeded by kids in car seats?

The only person farther from the aisle than a car seat would be an accompanying adult.

Unfastening the child from a car seat and evacuating is a lot quicker and less disruptive than having to find the child and evacuating.

(Relates to http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post7926326)

[DoMePlease]

"Big aeroplanes, legacy carriers and Asian airlines..the triage does nothing to encourage visually flown approaches. Infact, a visual approach is anathema to the firm I work for and on the 777 fleet, rarely flown either for real or in the sim..due "threat"..wtf!!! For the kids doing right seat conversions to type, an end of sim VMC, no vasi, no ILS approach, under..lets just have a go and no test threat...is a real eye opener!! Flying schools, or at least flying school precursors for the airlines do not engender a culture of visual and manual flying. Low energy conditions, stall incipients etc are all covered by modules and the insurance of protections by the myriad of auto systems. Mix that with the barrier culture of Asian "face" and the risk of incident is increased immeasurably. The CVR will be an interesting if not indicting piece of evidence in MHO.... "




Funny. I don't remember Jacob Veldhuyzen van Zanten being Asian at all.

[B777TAC]

Engines?

Looking at the debris field is that the right engine PW upside down up against the right side of the aircraft? If so where is the other engine?

[ReverseFlight]

I asked about 300 ft per mile approach profile for visual and non precision approaches

It's been ages since I last posted on this forum.

Just recalled the other rule of halving your ground speed to target your RoD ... it seems nobody cares about this rule of thumb either.

[nitpicker330]

All of the experienced Pilots know these rules of thumb and use them where needed.

[jugofpropwash]

According to CNN, the two deceased individuals found on the runway were both holders of Chinese passports. Would flight attendants have had Chinese passports?

[Salen]

Stable approach?

From FLIGHTAWARE:
At 11.7 nm final 4200 feet (about 520 feet high)
At 800ft, ROD 1380ft/min 145kts
At 600ft , ROD 1320ft/min 141kts
At 100ft, ROD 120ft/min 109kts !!!
(Then at 200ft, ROD +120ft/min, 85kts) probably spurious or a Stall
"STABLE" ???

[suninmyeyes]

The 777 can catch you out with with what is known as the "FLCH trap."

When you are above the glide slope and need to get down in a hurry Flight Level Change (FLCH) is a useful mode to use. Normally you transfer to another mode like glideslope or vertical speed, or you switch off the flight directors.

However in this situation the glideslope was off the air so the ILS would not have ben selected or armed. If the flight directors were left on and the plane was descending at a high rate in FLCH the autothrottle would have been inhibited and would not have put on power so the thrust levers would have stayed at idle.

If the Asiana was a bit high (quite normal for SFO) then regained the visual glideslope, the rate of descent would have decreased and the speed would have started slowly reducing but with the thrust levers staying at idle the 777 would now be in the same situation as the Turkish 737 at AMS, ie speed decreasing below Vref and not being noticed.

The 777 has autothrottle wake up, ie when the aircraft approaches a stall the power comes on automatically to almost full power. This gives pilots great confidence however autothrottle wake up is inhibited in FLCH.

So 777 pilots will be looking at this scenario and wondering if Asiana were in FLCH with flight directors on, too high, stabilised late and did not notice they were still in FLCH and that the autothrottle was not keeping the speed to Vref plus 5 untl too late.

Just a theory but I think it far more likely than engine failure, radalt failure or autothrottle failure and I suspect when the events are unravelled this will be what has happend.